Lyn Liao Butler, Author of The Tiger Mom's Tale: Asian family drama. Adoption. Food as a love language.
Lyn speaks out on her own personal mental health journey as a writer, mother, designer, and fitness trainer.
Season 1 Episode 10
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Lyn Liao Butler, author of the debut published novel The Tiger Mom’s Tale, tells us how she found peace and healing in her writing, Taiwanese heritage, and how fate led her to adopt “the happiest little boy in the world.” We talk about the effects of racism and Tiger parenting, why food is the original love language in Asian culture and unpack why mental health issues are seen as so shameful in our families and communities - and what we can do about it.
About Lyn Liao Butler: Lyn was born in Taiwan and moved to the states when she was seven and our past and present lives. She has been a concert pianist, a professional ballet and modern dancer, a gym and fitness studio owner, a certified personal trainer and fitness instructor, a certified yoga instructor, a purse designer, and most recently author of multi-cultural fiction.
Review of The Tiger Mom’s Tale
Review: The Tiger Mom's Tale is a moving and modern story of self-acceptance, love and healing, centered upon the refreshingly nuanced experience of Lexa, a biracial personal trainer who now has to reconcile her Taiwanese and American heritage and families. Lyn's debut published novel spans NYC to Taiwan, taking us on a vibrant journey of night markets, to career and dating mishaps, to reclaiming power and peace with kung fu and sisterhood. Her novel deftly explores the twisted saga of intergenerational, cross-cultural family drama and modern love with a sense of empowered, enlightened humor and wisdom.
Lyn’s mouthwatering descriptions of Taiwanese food also remind us of how traditions of eating and sharing are everlasting markers of cultural identity, love, and emotion. It’s an enjoyable and quick read that is sure to delight the senses and offer familiarity in its saga of navigating Asian family politics and bicultural expectations, yet surprises and comforts in its modern-day depictions of love, humanity and hope.
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episode music courtesy of Uppbeat [ATM]
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Watch the full Thrive Spice podcast interview with Lyn Liao Butler on YouTube
Real talk on mental health
Memorable quotes from Lyn’s interview, including mental health, adoption and pregnancy loss, and finding peace and healing through writing and kung fu.
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Full interview of Thrive Spice Season 1 Episode 10 - Lyn Liao Butler, Author of The Tiger Mom's Tale - Tiger Parenting, Asian Family Drama, Adoption, and Food as a Love Language
Full Interview Transcript
Vanessa: Our guest on Thrive Spice today is Lyn Liao Butler, published author of her debut novel, The Tiger Mom's Tale, which was named one of the Summer's Best Reads by Parade and Pop Sugar. In The Tiger Mom's Tale, personal trainer Lexa Thomas must confront the scars of her past in order to embrace her true identity or turn her back on her Taiwanese heritage forever.
The book has been described as a heartfelt, delightful read by Charles Yu, author of Interior Chinatown, and winner of the National Book Award for fiction. Lynn was born in Taiwan and moved to the states when she was seven and our past and present lives. She has been a concert pianist, a professional ballet and modern dancer, a gym and fitness studio owner, a certified personal trainer and fitness instructor, a certified yoga instructor, a purse designer, and most recently author of multi-cultural fiction.
Her mother swears she was not a Tiger Mom to Lyn. Lyn came about her overachieving all by herself. Having lived in New York city for over a decade, Lyn fled for the peace and quiet other suburbs. When she married her FDNY husband. She now resides on a lake with her fireman, their son, the happiest little boy in the world, and their two stubborn dachshunds Loki and Mochi, and a foster puppy named Evie, who makes an unexpected guest appearance on this podcast today with some squeaky toys.
When she's not torturing clients or talking to imaginary characters, Lyn enjoys cooking, sewing purses for her Etsy shop, spending time with their family and trying crazy yoga poses on our standup paddleboard. So far, she has not fallen into the water yet.
Lyn: So happy to meet you.
Vanessa: I know, I know it was so funny how I just stumbled upon your article about your book. And I was like, oh my gosh, there's another Taiwanese American person here in Westchester?! That was already like really amazing.
And then I'm just so excited to see that you've written a book. Congratulations.
Lyn: I have a foster dog in here and she keeps squeaking the toys. I've taken them away from her, but we might have to stop.
Vanessa: That's all right. We'll figure it out. I totally get it.
Lyn: Thank you.
Vanessa: Are you staying cool in this heat?
Lyn: Yeah, I just taught a yoga class, so I'm a little hot right now.
Vanessa: I love it. That's awesome. That's great. Well, first of all, thank you so much for joining us here today on Thrive Spice.
We're just so excited. This is our first published author we're interviewing. So I'm very excited about that. And , as I was telling you before I was so excited to stumble upon your book. It is so rare to come across Taiwanese-American writers. So this was such a happy moment for me and I absolutely loved your book.
I finished it in four days, like Harry Potter, binge-reading style. It was like staying up late to read it and wondering what was going to happen next. I really feel like it has this like cinematic quality to it, and I can totally see it becoming one of those blockbuster movies, like Crazy Rich Asians, love the plot line.
You're a master with that. So, congrats again. And I appreciated how there was just so much love and inclusion of the nuances of not just Taiwanese and Chinese culture with the night market food and sesame balls and beef noodle soup, all my favorites - but also the family politics and Tiger Mom expectations of the holy grail: becoming a doctor. But I could also relate to that kind of go-getter New York city culture when it comes to career and fitness and having it all. So I found it really relatable. I had also lived in a city for 13 years, mostly on the east side and Midtown and downtown.
So it was fun to see you'd sprinkled in a lot of those like familiar places and neighborhood spots. And I love that the book really unapologetically sprinkled in Chinese words and food and traditions, but centered them on a lot of untraditional perspectives. You had Lexa as a biracial character, partially adopted, who grew up in a blended family and whose mother is coming out as gay in her sixties, and wrestles with her Taiwanese and American heritage and families. And I really love that you had characters like Hsu-Ling had her leg - with differently abled characters. I thought that was very progressive. So Bravo and congrats.
Lyn: Thank you so much. I mean, I'm so happy to hear that you actually enjoyed it because a lot of, I think my harshest critics were either Taiwanese American women or Asian Americans, because they didn't see the representation of themselves, of their lives.
And you brought up a really good point. There is not a lot of Taiwanese American representation in books. And my editor who's been in publishing for like 25, 30 years, said my book was the first one that she's ever gotten on submission that was told from a Taiwanese American perspective, which just blew my mind. Like that's how much we need to catch up, right?
Vanessa: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I was thinking about it last night, too. Like the number of Taiwanese American people who are really in the public eye in America is so few, like you can get them on one hand and that absolutely needs to change. And I'm so happy that you have kind of broken through and like opened the gate for the rest of us. I'm sure that was, a tough process. Like I'm wondering, I know this is your first published book, so I'm wondering, what inspired you to write the book and what was that writing and publishing journey like for you?
Lyn: Well, first of all, publishing is so hard. Yeah. I mean, unless you're one of those lucky people who gets an agent right away, it usually takes a few years and sometimes more than one book to even find an agent. And then once you get an agent, you think you have it made, but no, they have to submit it to all the publishing houses. And that's even the odds of getting that of getting picked up.
Are it goes even less because not only does the editor have to love it, but the entire publishing team, like sales team, all the other editors, like yeah. Everybody has to weigh in on it and they all have to love it in order for it to be picked up. So when you think about those chances, it's like so hard.
And then on top of that, as an Asian American that I was breaking into, when I first started in 2015, it was not, I mean, it was very, it was hard there. I just started saying we need more diversity in publishing.
But then I also get pushback from people who are like Americans or whatever. And they said, well, I can't get an agent because everybody wants diverse people.
So you'll get an agent real quick and it doesn't matter how good of a writer you are. So,
know,
you're getting that kind of pushback on books. I'm like, well, no, that's not really how that works. Yeah. So I don't know. I started, I wasn't a writer. I was always an avid reader. I would read like five, seven books a day. This is before, I had children.
Vanessa: I can relate to that for sure. Yeah. This is the first book I read in a long time.
Lyn: So I never thought I could write, but in 2015, I was like, my absolute idol is Liane Moriarty and her books really spoke to me at a time in my life when I was going through a lot of hard stuff.
And even though her books are based in Australia, her subjects are so timely, like you can relate to it no matter where you are. And I was like, I would love to do that for people, but specifically Asian Americans who might feel at a place here in America, who feel not quite Asian enough, not quite American enough and just kind of caught between two worlds.
So that's why I sat down and started writing this book, but it took three and a half years, three books to find an agent. And this book was actually a rewrite of that first book I wrote in 2015. Wow. So I think a long time.
Vanessa: Well thank you for pushing through. And the mission that you have is so important Representation I feel is just, I can't stress it enough, how much it matters.
And now that I have two young daughters, I really look out for that and I'm always thinking like, how are we making it better for them to recognize their own narratives out there? And I'm curious, you kind of touched on this a little bit, but what brought you joy and fulfillment during this process and how did you navigate, setbacks or negative feedback, or even just having to wait for feedback.
Lyn: Yeah. I mean, it's been a very hard journey. And the only way to get through it seriously is to find other authors who are at the same path as you, because writing is so solitary. And I didn't tell anybody in my real life that I was writing. I lied. I lied to people for three and a half years, except for mine.
I did tell my husband, cause I was seeing like critique groups or go right. And I didn't want him to think I was having an affair. [laughter]. I didn't tell anybody I was writing because I was almost like I was ashamed of it because I wasn't making any money. There wasn't any, I wasn't getting anything in return. It was like three and a half years of writing to the void. So finding author, friends who are we're on the same path with such a lifesaver, because then we can say, you know, I had my query friends when I was querying. And then what else? A submission… I had submissions support group.
And then when we got a deal, I had the 2021 debut group, plus the Berkeley -I'm with Berkeley publishing, had their, that debut group. And they're the ones that really kept me going. Cause they can cheer you on. They understand all the pitfalls, they're going through the exact same thing you're going through.
So that's what kept me going was that, and then it's been, it's been hard, like you want to give up and yeah, I just kept pushing through because like I said, I really wanted to get our voice out there. And it's funny, I think I've mentioned earlier that the feedback that I was getting from some Asian Americans was that they hated it.
They hated this book. They said it was the worst book they ever read. It was stereotypical. And the Mandarin was stilted and that it wasn't representative of their experience as Taiwanese American or whatever. And I get it because there is not a lot of Taiwanese books out there. This is just from my perspective.
And I moved here when I was seven. So yes, my Mandarin is like that as a seven year old. And so is Lexa. Like, let's say, I didn't really know Mandarin that well study in Chinese school, but she didn't grow up with it. And that the stereotype of the Tiger Mom, that I fell back in the stereotype, but there's a reason why there's this Tiger Mom stereotype.
Cause there really are women out there who behaves exactly like Pin-Yen did in the book. So it's, I get it. And I hope that what happens is that more and more representation will show up in books and movies and entertainment for the Taiwanese perspective or just mixed race, and hopefully then they can see themselves in that people like me who are just pushing through are not responsible for representing all Taiwanese Americans, because I can't.
Vanessa: Yeah. That's such a liberated perspective and I totally agree with you there. It's not our duty to be a monolith and represent every single, I mean it's impossible. So I think that's a really healthy perspective to have and kudos to you for. Adapting to that, because I can imagine, hearing such harsh feedback from your own community, right.
It feels like a betrayal. You're like, Hey, I wrote this for you.
Lyn: I was really taken aback at first. And it really like, kind of like shocked me, but then they thought I was. And, my editor, my friends tell me not to read reviews, but I do it doesn't really bother me. It's I like to hear what people are saying, because it's really interesting to me how one book, somebody can either love it so much, or they just hate it so much.
And it doesn't really bother me. It just kind of opens my eyes to realize that, oh, you know what? There needs to be more of this.
Vanessa: Right, right. I remember when crazy rich Asians came out on film. There was a lot of similar sentiment within the community, even where some folks felt it didn't represent them.
And I think that response from Kevin Kwan was like, that's fine, but I encourage you to go out there and tell your story, then let it be, let it inspire you to come out and use your voice, which I think was.
Lyn: We don't expect all white people to behave a certain way. So the same thing it's like, it's just now I, and more than ever, I think Asian Americans need to push through that barrier and like the entertainment, the books, everything.
I don't know if you know this, but my book was pushed back because of the pandemic. It was really supposed to come out earlier this year. And then it got pushed back because the pandemic, and then when all that anti-Asian sentiment was happening last year. But I got an email saying, we're going to push your book back even further into the summer because of the anti-Asian sentiments.
And at first, I said this all the time, my first, my agent, I pushed back. Cause we're like, well, this is a time where we should put us out there and say, we're here, we're Americans, we're not going anywhere. And they understood. They said, yes, that's totally right but I'm a debut author. Nobody knows who the heck I am.
And for me to debut in a climate where it's hostile, they felt it was detrimental to the reach that I could get. So they wanted to wait until it was at least a little more, not so volatile. And you know what I think they were right. They know how to market books, way more than I do. I have no idea how to do this, but I think they're right, because now I feel like having this book come out just two weeks ago, it's the world is a little bit different than it was at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, things are coming down a little bit and I hope now our voices can be heard more than when it was in that turmoil. Yeah, in a way. I'm glad it got pushed back.
Vanessa: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I can imagine that was super challenging, especially you'd already waited so long and really it was a labor of love and that the time around the statistics coming out around the anti-Asian violence that was happening also impacted me in a very big way.
In part, it actually inspired me to start this podcast. Yeah, because I saw that our community was really hurting and we were struggling to talk about it in a way that felt healing and felt safe. And also when you're kind of in that audience where it's more than just Asians, and you're talking to white folks and people who might not understand our experience, you do feel kind of that burden of representing, an entire community.
So I can definitely relate to that where just giving us the space to talk about it. And I think. Giving us also the time to organize and unite as a community hopefully helps your book launch as well, just to recognize the importance of representation and rallying around and amplifying the voices of new authors in our community.
Lyn: Right. That's why, when you reached out to me, I was like, oh, I definitely want to talk to you, because it's rare to find someone who has a podcast that talks about these issues. And I told my publicist that I would love to do more of these and, just start using my voice in whatever way I can to spread the word and get it out there.
Vanessa: So absolutely your voice absolutely matters. So thank you for using it. And also in your book. I wanted to switch gears a little bit. I noticed and appreciated how food. Played such a pivotal role in the novel. I think food is like the original love language of Asian culture. So as Asians, we know that food and family are just such an integral part of our emotional lives and our culture.
And in scenes, especially where the family is eating these lavish courses around the lazy Susan. Like I've done that with my relatives in like Taiwan and Hong Kong and Singapore. So I could picture it so vividly. Or I love how you use like Sesame balls as this common thread throughout the story.
You did this wonderful job of using food as a marker of time, space and emotion. I'm curious what your favorite dish that you described in the novel is and what role has it played in your life emotionally?
Lyn: Well, I didn't actually realize I was writing about food. Like it wasn't. So after I started getting, advanced reviews and everybody was mentioning, who else?
Like, did I write a book about food? And then I went back. I was like, oh, I guess I did what it made me realize is that the Taiwanese culture, we love food. You go to Taiwan. I mean, the only thing I want to do when I go back there is eat.
Vanessa: Oh, yeah.
Lyn: I took my American husband and our son there a few years ago.
to do research for this book and combine into a family trip. And after a few days of just eating all day long, he goes, is this all we're going to do? Just eat. I'm like, yeah, pretty much. We're not sight-seeing.
Vanessa: Exactly. Exactly.
Lyn: And that made me realize how much food plays such a big role in the Taiwanese culture.
And I didn't realize, but I loved how the street food, like none of the night markets, the day markets, I just walking up and down there. Everything is just, I crave it. Cause then, cause we don't get it here, all that fun stuff. Even the stinky tofu like there used to be a place in Flushing, but now it's not there anymore.
But my favorite favorite thing is the noodle soups…
Vanessa: mmm-hmmn.
Lyn: … and shaved ice and bubble tea. I could just get survive off of those three things.
Vanessa: Oh my gosh. I'm like, I need to eat that for lunch now. That sounds so good. Yeah, definitely relate to your experience, bringing your husband to Taiwan because my husband's Indian and I took him shortly after we got engaged, like many moons ago now to Taiwan and Hong Kong and Singapore, where I have family.
And I was like, okay, there's just one rule. I was like, you eat whatever they put in front of you, I'm like, do not hesitate. Do not ask questions. Don't pass go. As long as you put it in your mouth, you are good. Like they don't care what you look like, where you came from. Like just eat and be happy. That's it. That's all you need to do..
Lyn: So my husband, So he just, he tried everything. Even like stuff that he was like, what is this? I was like just eat it.
Vanessa: Do not ask what it is. Just put it in your mouth. Yeah.
Lyn: He actually loved it. He loved all the foods. So
Vanessa: that's awesome. That's great. Yeah. I think that's the ultimate test of a partner. It's like, all right, I'm going to bring you here and you're just going to eat everything and you will enjoy it.
Oh, that's great. You're a, so your writer's bio mentions that you did not have a Tiger Mom, but you came about overachieving all on your own. So I'm curious, where did that come from and what are your feelings towards tiger parenting in general?
Lyn: So I know many Tiger Moms and Tiger Dads. My mom was like the opposite of my parents were the opposite. So everybody in our family, like the Taiwanese, they want you to be a doctor or a lawyer, or some sort of, something that makes a lot of money. It has prestige. And of course, my sister and I go into the arts. Like I was a dancer, a ballet dancer. My sister wanted to be in Hollywood, like writing and editing.
And we both like deviated from this and she did not push us. Like she was like, whatever you wanna do. I'll support you for two, three years after school. And then if you can't make it, then get a real job. So I think I've always just been an overachiever, like a type A like, just do it, get it done.
And I do like a million things at the same time, so I never had that Tiger Mom push, but I know so many Tiger Moms that I was like, you see, and you think like, what would happen if a woman or man is so obsessed with getting their child ahead that they have blinders on to anything else. Like if they're hurting somebody else and what, if whatever this person does impact somebody else's life.
And that's where that story came from. The Tiger Mom's tale. It wasn't originally in the first book that I wrote. I mean, the first draft I wrote it was a different trauma that happened that kept her from going back to Taiwan. But then as I developed the story, I said, you know what?
This is something that's very prevalent in people's lives that I know of. So I wanted to bring that stereotype in, and it is a stereotype for a reason. Cause they're really, they really do do this. They are really mean to their kids and there's no friends. It's all about academics. If you get a 99, what happened to that other one point? Yeah. Just bringing a look into that life.
Vanessa: Right. Right. And I think that was a great point in terms of that whole Tiger Mom or Tiger Dad culture. It impacts not just their children, but everyone around them. And I think you did a great job of illustrating how there's this ripple effect of how it really twists and affects the entire family. And it's intergenerational trauma. And then I guess Lexa is kind of tasked with intergenerational healing on the flip side when she receives the news. So, I appreciated that as well.
I also noticed that the book shows what it's like for a modern day, Asian American woman to experience racism, whether it's casual microaggressions to dating guys with yellow fever, which if you're an Asian woman, every one of us has been there, had the unwelcome comments. Given everything that's happened lately with anti-Asian violence and racism, was it therapeutic for you to write about it and how Lexa reacts?
Lyn: Oh, yes, definitely. So, like you, I lived in New York city for 14 years and I think all the dating situations I put in the book really happened to me.
Vanessa: Wow.
Lyn: So that scene where she's meeting the guy with a yellow fever who asked her for a "you know what" down the FDR, that actually happened to me and
Vanessa: oh my God.
Lyn: Literally the FDR drive and [laughs] I did not throw my drink in his face or his drink in his lap,but I wanted to, and like as a good Taiwanese-American I was brought up to be polite. I did not do that at the time, but so I had Lexa do it for me. And that was such, I was just like, ah, this is so like therapeutic to be able to.
Has to have her stand up for herself and be like, Hey, you're a pig. Just because I look, Asian doesn't mean I'm going to do that. And that's actually, one of my favorite lines is when her friend Bob is like, why the FDR, why not the west side highway? Because that was like the thought in my head. Like it's such a specific detail.
Like why is there some sort of fetish in there?
Vanessa: Yeah. Arguably less scenic in my opinion, but you know, to each his own.
Lyn: That was my favorite line. And then the other scenes that happened later on with the three sisters, I mean, all this stuff has happened to me. I mean, I did not kung fu the guy, it wasn't whatever, but I wanted to cause I've been called exotic a lot and that I'm submissive and that I am a Lotus blossom waiting to flower, whatever it is like, do I look like a Lotus blossom to you?
Vanessa: Right, right. Super annoying.
Lyn: But it's it happens and it really does happen. It keeps happening like still, even as a middle aged woman.
Vanessa: I know, like, when does it end? Yeah, it's one of those, like double-edged sword. It's like, yeah. We tend to age well as Asian women, but we're just like, okay, like, I've got a kid, I've got a stroller, like when is this going to end? I'm picking up my dog's poop. Like, come on.
Lyn: Oh yeah. That happens all the time in New York city. Yeah. I just wanted to give people who weren't Asian or people who were Asian and have gone through it. Just like kind of a glimpse of what we deal with on a daily basis and how, and the way she reacted was the way I wished I had reacted in my twenties.
I was, not like that, as confident as Lexa was and able to like, just be like, no, you don't talk to me like that. So, yeah, that was my way of. Going back,and redoing it.
Vanessa: I love that. I love that it was so healing for you and I have many similar experiences where I, like, I'm not good at quick comebacks.
Like I would think of it like five blocks later. I'm like, this is what I should have said. Like that was so rude. And the few times I did say something like they would then physically threaten me. So I was, yeah. Okay, maybe we're not going to do that. So, and I think it is important to illustrate to those who don't identify as an Asian American female, that this does happen quite often, and it does feel scary and demeaning and.
It does leave scars. So I think it is important to show that we're not making this up, this happened, and even like the microaggressions there are a few in the book, like what Lexa's clients say to her sometimes about being Asian and she can eat whatever she want or whatever it is like.
And it just get tiring. You're like, I'm tired of that. So it was nice to see that represented because it's one of those nuances of what it's like to be an Asian American woman in a big city. And I think it helps others understand why a lot of these acts of, bias and hatred were happening.
And still do.
Lyn: We didn't bring it on ourselves. I mean, it's just, yeah. It's saying like, looking the way we look, it happens.
Vanessa: Exactly.
Like we can't change the way our faces look. I mean, I went through a phase after the Atlanta spa shootings where I was afraid to even go outside with a mask because I thought they can still tell I'm Asian underneath my mask. And I was afraid for my family. And I was like, no one should have to live like this. Okay.
Lyn: I live in a, well, I think you're in the suburbs too, but I had to go to the city and my mom's like, yeah, Don't take the subway. They're going to push you into the subway tracks in the middle. And like, she was freaking out and I I was like, yeah, I understand you're worried.
I will stand in the middle. I'll hug a pole or something.
Vanessa: I know, I know. It's like the little things that we've done throughout the years like, you put the keys in your fist and you scan your surroundings
Lyn: I'm always aware of my surroundings in NYC.
Vanessa: Yeah. And I think that to add to that, I think there was just such a rich exploration of the roles and expectations for women in your novel.
What really struck me was that eldest daughter syndrome that I feel cause I am the oldest daughter. So I'll speak from my experience. So you're caring for everyone, your parents, your siblings, extended family, your dog and then also to sisterhood and the complexities of that relationship as well.
I really identified with that as the eldest daughter and I also have two little girls who, although they're only one and three years old, Alrighty encompass the full spectrum of emotions that were between the sisters in your novel. There's jealousy, love, hatred, kindness, playfulness, it's all there.
It's all there from the beginning. So I appreciated seeing that kind of play out in the book. In your personal life, how have traditional gender role expectations of you as a daughter or a sister, wife, mother, et cetera, affected your mental health?
Lyn: So I was pretty lucky that in our family. It wasn't just like sons are revered and daughters are just pushed aside.
We were treated pretty equally, which is great. Like my parents were really about education for everybody and, nurturing whatever talent we had because I used to be a piano player and then I wanted to dance. And so it was okay. Like, it wasn't like our male cousins were more revered than we were.
I think we were treated all pretty equally, but they all wanted us to be doctors and bankers or like, lawyers, financial people. So the only thing that I really felt was that my sister and I just deviated from the family, cause my mom is one of six and my dad's one of nine. And most of them went into like the expected professions and stuff, and we kind of deviated from that. So that was like probably the only thing that really wasn't, I mean, not expected or accepted in our family, but just different. I didn't really feel that too much of that syndrome of being the person in charge. I mean, I am, I'm the oldest sister in my, in our, I have a younger sister which is why based Lexa, that she was the older sister with two younger half-sisters she's kind of looking out for, but at the same time they are looking out for her.
So it's like that dynamic. I feel that a lot with my sister. Like, even though we don't talk a lot sometimes, or she lives in California. I'm over here. Responsibility. And then the fact that when we're together with all the cousins, the oldest cousin is usually the one that we look up to, even though the oldest male is who would inherit it. So it's not the oldest girl. It would be the oldest male. So my oldest cousin is a female, so she wouldn't have inherited according to the, whatever, lines of that Taiwan. And I kind of explained that a little bit in The Tiger Mom’s Tale.
Vanessa: So, yeah, I think that's super interesting because I've also noticed especially as I got older that sometimes it's my younger brothers who take care of me in a way.
So it's really nice to see that. Your relationship flipped around as we get older. And I see some of that in the novel as well, where as you mentioned her younger sisters are taking care of her in unexpected ways. And I think when we expect to shoulder that burden as an eldest daughter, our whole lives, it also takes a toll on us, but then it's this pleasant surprise when we realize we can also seek support from others and we're not alone and we can seek help from others.
Lyn: Right. There's right. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that.
Vanessa: And I also noticed in terms of support I noticed that and I love that Lexa returns to her kung fu practice and her mentorship with her shifu as a place of calm and direction throughout the story, especially because my mom actually has been taking Shao Lin for many years and she's got like the swords and the sticks and like she's yeah.
She's like this unassuming petite, older Asian woman, very sweet. And then, you ask her like what she's working on. She's like, yeah, I'm working on learning how to kill someone. Like, okay mom. And then like, she'll send me videos where she looks like Kung Fu Panda. I'm just like, all right. That's awesome.
So I love that because I also think that that whole mental aspect of any sort of martial arts practice is almost like undersold or misunderstood particularly in American culture. And I actually teared up at that line in your book when Lexa's shifu tells her peace is the most powerful weapon on earth, and it's the highest level of kung fu. And you can find peace inside and then nothing can touch you.
I was like, oh, that's just such a beautiful lesson. You learn kung fu for all these years and to feel like you can fend for yourself and, but really it's this practice of mental fortitude.
Lyn: Right.
Vanessa: Yeah, I'm curious, what is your kung fu when it comes to your own mental health journey?
What's helped you maintain a sense of peace in times of stress or doubt or turmoil?
Lyn: Well, I actually did study kung fu for one summer. I was dancing in the city and I had the summer off. So I went to the Shaolin temple there. And the shifu that I met is based on this man that I met who was a Shaolin Temple monk. And I loved it so much, not just the physical aspect, because, as a dancer and fitness instructor, that part spoke to me, but also all his philosophy, like everything I wrote in the book was stuff that he said about the peace and how believe in yourself, try harder.
That was all just like, I wish I could've kept going, but then I went back to performing in the fall, so I could only do it during the summer, but it just stuck with me because, life is so hard, hard, and there's so many different ways. Like I can't meditate. I'm too type a. And like, find different ways of, I'm a yoga instructor, but I still can't shut off at night.
And it's taken a lot of different things for me to get to where I am, because I think I mentioned earlier that in 2013, I had all these terrible things happen and I was about to give up on life. I was like, this is it. I'm done. But the books is what got me through these books and just kind of finding myself again.
Yeah. And finding, who am I? Like, Shifu said, believe in yourself. Yeah. Yeah. To boost you up. It's been a very hard and in my third book it's not been sold yet, but I deal with a lot of mental health issues in Asian-American families, how it's a stigma and that we don't talk about it.
So I actually based my third book, the main character is depressed. All these bad things happen to her and she has a lot of mental health issues.
She does not address them because she's been told all her life that mental health problems are just something in their head.
She doesn't seek help. She won't go see someone and her friends and her husband are like, you need to go. So I do address that in that third book, because I feel like it's so important. Asian Americans tend to think of mental illness or mental problems as stigma and they don't talk about it.
They don't address it, families hide it. So if you have a problem we're told, like, shhh, don't tell anybody it's a secret or nobody tells you anything years later, like so-and-so tried to commit suicide or so-and-so is depressed. Someone was admitted into a hospital. So I just think like, we need to be more open about it and which would help everybody, instead of just bearing it. To just be able to deal with your own mental health and keeping everything imbalanced. And I really believe that mental health is the balance between mental, physical, and then your own emotional self worth - like how you feel about yourself.
Vanessa: I definitely can agree with that in terms of mental health being more than just about mental health. There's a trifecta of factors beneath that. And I couldn't agree more about that sense of shame that happens and secrecy that I'm really hoping that we can help to alleviate. So that it's a thing of the past.
And I think that. Sometimes these secrets are like hidden for generations. And find out until someone's passed away or just, decades later. And I think that happens in your book as well.
Really glad that you're focusing on that in your third book, I think that's such an important message, particularly for our community because there is such a history of privacy and secrecy and shame that really should not be there, when it comes to mental health.
I use the analogy of if you have a broken arm or you have a rash on your skin, you, what do you do? You go seek help. There's no shame. Just go see it, go see someone who can help you with that. It really should be the same for mental health, right? And if you're starting to be aware of it affecting your mood and your happiness and you’re feeling stress and anxiety or depression, it's very common.
And it's absolutely something that you can seek help with. It doesn't necessarily require medication. Although, some people do better on medication. And it's just something that a lot of us go through. Many, many, many of us go through. I have myself has struggled with it throughout my life and have been in therapy for many years.
And I think just normalizing that for our community and showing that it's not only okay, but it shows that you've invested in your own mental health and in your family's health, right? Because you can show up as your whole self, as your best self, and you're able to care for others better. Particularly as a mother, that was the lesson I had to learn the hard way.
Because I had this like sacrificial image in my head of what it was like to be a mom. And so I definitely had to learn the hard way. I was like, oh wait, like it's okay If I take time to shower and get sleep and eat and just even beyond basic needs, like really make time for self-care.
And I'm curious, because I read your blog and I saw that you had adopted a little boy and I loved reading that story. So I'm curious, for you as a mother how has that changed you?
Lyn: Oh, yeah, it's definitely… My life was, our life was turned upside down when we got him, like we were expecting he was almost four years old when we adopted him and we were expecting a walking, talking toddler, but he wasn't walking, talking or diaper trained.
It was a shock. So first of all, even just becoming a parent is so stressful. Yeah. And then to not get the kind of, the child that we were expecting was even a bigger shock. We didn't know how to change the diaper because we just thought he knew it was already out of it. So we had to get somebody to show us how to change a diaper.
He is literally - I call him the happiest little boy on the earth - and he is just like, he is like Buddha, like so many people say this, like, there's a glow, there's this thing about him. That just makes you realize... Like he is how we should live life like, oh, just like every day there was so much joy and happiness and gratitude that he is alive and that he is no longer in an orphanage, not getting enough to eat and not getting any stimulation here.
So, I mean, because they told us with children that are older when you adopt them from these circumstances that they could have issues, they might not bond with you. They could have tantrums, hit. Steal all the stuff. And he didn't do any of that. He bonded to us right away. And I think it's because I speak Mandarin and I was able to communicate with him.
So he understood whether, if it's an American family that adopted who doesn't speak the language, first of all, they look different. And second of all, they can't communicate with him. So, it just really, he just opens my eyes that this is how we should live life. And I'm very, if you ask my husband, I can get very grumpy and crotchety when I don't have enough sleep
Vanessa: oh, me too.
Lyn: And whatever. And I yell and, whatever, like, yeah. And I look at him, and I wish I could be more like him. And so I'm like learning from him, even though he's only, he just turned nine.
You know, he's a little boy, but he is just such a light and everybody can see it.
Vanessa: oh, I love that. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, we think we're here to teach our children and then they end up teaching us and they're just so good at being adaptable and living in the moment and finding joy. And it's such a good reminder particularly because it is hard for us moms and, trust me, I've definitely been there. I mean, lack of sleep turns me into like the zombie demon. I am not fun to be around. Like, I definitely will yell. And you should've seen me during the pandemic when both my daughters were home and there was no help. Even getting groceries, there was like a seven day wait to get groceries. I mean, just anything sent me off. So yeah, I get it.
Lyn: And I had to homeschool him. And that was like the worst thing that could have ever happened to me. He said to me after like a month and a half: he goes, mommy, I retire from your school. I hate it. You can't retire, you're 8 years old!
He said, I love you as a mommy. But I really did not like you as a teacher.
Vanessa: I think that's most kids. I mean, I'm sure you probably could say, I love you as my child, but I don't like being your teacher.
Lyn: I don't want to be your teacher and be stuck with you 24/7!
Vanessa: It is really hard. Yeah. I mean, I spent some time home with my daughter as her first year and it was just the most difficult job I've ever had
Lyn: oh yeah.
Vanessa: So I have so much respect for their teachers at their schools because I mean, I just don't have the patience.
Lyn: I don't either.
Vanessa: The reality is even at school, like there's, there's a staff and there's someone who's helping to cook the meals and somebody who's helping to clean and someone's taking turns
Lyn: right.
Vanessa: If someone needs to take a bathroom break, that's okay. Like, someone else will take over and that's not the case at home. So it is really tough when all of that's expected of us. But I'm just so happy to hear that. You had such a positive experience with adopting. Did you always know you wanted to adopt?
Lyn: No, I never wanted to adopt. I've always said I did. I want children. I don't know. I just, I just could never imagine myself having a child and be responsible for a child. But my husband wanted children. And then, we had in 2013, I mentioned we had a lot of bad things happen to me. I had three miscarriages in one year, so I was pregnant three times in one year, and ended up getting a complication from two of them.
Because I had like a blood clot, the size of a grapefruit in my, I mean, it was, and I had to have surgery. And so the doctor was like, the good news is you can get pregnant. You can keep trying, but my husband's like, after that year, he's like, no, no, because it was like, so physically, you know, and mentally tolling on both of us.
So we discussed adopting and we did look into it for a while and then we gave up on it. We said, we're not going to do this. And then I rescued five stray cats, or maybe it was four straight cats and brought them in to get spayed. And the woman that was in charge of the rescue had adopted three kids from China and told us about the agent she used.
And we met she introduced us and it just, everything fell in place. And then we saw the picture of our son and we all said, this is our child.
Vanessa: Aww!
Lyn: As we, they had given us other dossiers to look at of healthy children. Our son was labeled the medical diagnosis, which is scary because we don't know what it meant, but we all my mom, my dad, my husband and I, we all looked at this file separately and we all said, this is our son.
Vanessa: Oh my God.
Lyn: So I really believe, and that's why my second book, Red Thread of Fate, is actually based on his adoption journey. It's not about him. It's just about the woman and her husband who wanted to adopt and how the fate just kind of brings you together with people you're meant to be whether it's like a loved one like a husband or a partner or something or a child.
Vanessa: That's so beautiful, I think. And thank you for sharing your journey on that because I also think it's one of those things that maybe in the past was like more stigmatized. Even miscarriages were definitely shrouded in secrecy. And I'm really happy that although it's, so sad to hear about, I'm really happy that women are finally coming out to talk about it.
Vanessa: It is so important because so many of us have gone through it than we think, and it's such a private wound. And I can't imagine how hard it must have been for you.
Lyn: Well, it actually helps me to talk about it. Like, so the first year it was awful. I mean, I didn't, I thought I was by myself alone. I didn't realize so many people had gone through it.
And then when I started talking about it and realized more people had gone through it maybe not to the extent of what happened to me with the blood clots and the complications, but I do put it into the second book. The main character, yes, does go through some of the same things I do, because I want to, like we said about the Asian community, hiding things, whatever.
I want to be able to talk about it and put it out there. I'm not ashamed of it. This happened to me. It shaped me and I do believe things happened the way they were supposed to. And that's how our son came into our lives. And I can't imagine him not in our lives right now. So, I'm hoping like with my books, that I can bring more of these taboo topics out in the open.
Vanessa: Yeah.
Lyn: For people who might have experienced the same thing and are afraid to talk about it or feel like you're alone.
Vanessa: I love that. I think it's such a modern twist and a beautifully collective one in terms of helping our community and those outside of our community as well. It just like we've all gone through these experiences that shaped us.
And as you said, you wouldn't have any different way. I also had two high-risk pregnancies, so I can fully, while I'm lucky enough to have not had loss, I can understand like the pressure and just the mental and physical toll it takes on you. So. I totally agree that it's super important to keep telling these stories.
Lyn: Right.
Vanessa: Because there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's a part of life.
Lyn: It happened.
Vanessa: Yeah, exactly. And you've learned something from it and you got a beautiful gift from him in the end. So I'm really happy to hear that. I'm curious, I noticed, and also appreciated that in your book.
It's a very non-linear in terms of the narration. And I appreciate how, like, the chapter is rotated amongst time and characters, different characters perspective, almost like zooming in and zooming out on the story from different perspectives. And I almost felt like it breeded this radical compassion for each of the characters and it really helped you understand why they did what they did
Lyn: right.
Vanessa: Particularly Pin-Yen and her, her journey, even the tiger mom has a tale as you know that your title of your book alludes, right? She also has a reason why she's doing this.
In the book and in your personal life, do you feel that our own journeys of healing, acceptance and peace can feel very non-linear at times?
Lyn: Yes. I think a lot of people get lost in their own like perspective and what's happening to them to their lives.
And that's why I wanted to tell the story from different points of view, because I didn't want it to just be from Lexa's point of view so that we only get in here. I want the reader to see how other people viewed her and also what they thought of her that might be different from what she thought and why they do the things that they do, because we all have reasons why we do things we do without that nobody knows about.
And I, when I originally wrote Pin-Yen, I think I made her too evil because my editor was like, could you add a scene and just to humanize her so that we can understand why she does the things she does? And I have gotten some feedback where people said that there were too many characters and that, there was too many arcs and whatever, but I'm like, but in life, that's what happens.
We are surrounded by a lot of people who influence us and it's not just our own lives that affect us, it's everybody else around us. So I was trying to make it more realistic, which I understand. And, they thought there was too many characters to get invested in or whatever. But for me, I felt all those characters kind of helped shape Lexa, just like people in our lives helped shape us and how we react to them, each person and how they perceive us. It kind of helps you draw a conclusion about who you are. And she needed to find, reconcile her Asian side that she has put away for so long before she could really understand who she was and what she wants out of life.
Vanessa: Right, totally. I love that. You did add that human component to Pin-Yen because to your point, we all know a tiger mom or tiger dad. Right. So we wonder, how did this happen? And I do think that's a wonderful nuance to add to that character, to help us understand those individuals in a family, in our communities.
And just try it, figure out, okay, where does that pain come from? Because everyone's got this pain or trauma that they've experienced and it impacts how they treat everybody else. So I love how you humanized that, but also show like the damaging effects as well. Like almost like a cautionary tale, like, okay, this is what could happen.
Lyn: Yeah if we get too obsessed...
Vanessa: If we let these negative thoughts really control us and have that cycle really become so damaging to everybody else. But I, again, want to just congratulate you on such a beautifully written story with really a lot of modern and traditional nuances that I really appreciated as a Taiwanese American.
And I also want to just congratulate you on just pushing through and surviving and thriving throughout the publishing journey. I can imagine it was just super tough and required a lot of like grit and resilience. So I applaud you for that. It seems like you returned to your book almost as like a form of meditation.
The action of continual movement or continual progression is so important. Did you ever have writer's block or, what did you do if you found yourself kind of stuck?
Lyn: I don't have writer's block because I don't write every day. I know a lot of people say you should write every day. Even if it's a few words, I don't, I'll go months without writing a single word, but I'm always thinking about it in my head about what is going to happen. What is this character like? I come up with I have a very big imagination. And so I come up with these scenarios and I work it through in my head. So that by the time I sit down to write, I know what I'm going to write and then the words flow out. So I call it in like in like bits and spurts, like spurts and stops. Like I'll go months without writing anything. And then also I'll just bang out half a book.
And I find inspiration from everybody and everything I come in contact with. Like every theme has either something like my husband is an FDNY fireman, and, sometimes he would come home and tell me this happened. I was like, Ooh, that would make an interesting story. Or I hear about somebody else or, like the shifu from kung fu. So I don't have writer's block. And it's because I don't force myself to write when I don't have anything to write about. I just allow my mind to go. I listen to what's going on. About, Ooh, what happened is so-and-so did this in this situation and then it comes, so I do outline now, so I'll come up with some sort of outline so that when I do write it's easy, easier.
Vanessa: Yeah. I love that. It's so freeing and I think and very mindful actually. So that's great that you've had this creative process that serves you and gives you joy. I love it.
Lyn: Yeah, and I focus on like, I'm also a fitness and a yoga instructor. So I use that to burn off that excess energy that you get from sitting still.
So that balance is good. And then I also a sewer, I have an Etsy store where I make like bags and purses I make. And for me, sewing is the meditation that I, because it's like mindless, I can just do it without thinking and I let my mind go. And it's just like, I just love that repetitiveness.
Vanessa: yeah.
Lyn: So that balance of those three things.
I'm so lucky that I found it because I searched for all my life, like, what do I want to do? And right now this balance is working for me. So that's, hopefully it works for a while.
Vanessa: Yeah. I think that's great because I think there's such a pressure, particularly in Asian American culture to just pick one thing and usually that's "Be a doctor."
Lyn: Right.
Vanessa: Everything should be a doctor. And then it's almost like it's so alien, this concept that you could be doing multiple things that bring you joy and abundance in different formats in your life. And I think that's such a refreshing departure from, the traditional kind of old school vision of what it means to be successful and fulfilled versus choosing our own path, which is, I guess admittedly a bit more like American, if you want to like quantify it into a category.
But I think, I see how, both in the book and in your personal life, it turned out to be better for both Lexa's mental health and fulfillment and for yours. So I'm really happy to hear that. And I'm just so thankful to you for sharing your journey with us and congrats again, such a wonderful book.
Everyone needs to go out and read it. I, we're going to call it now. It's going to be on screen, in theaters or something in a few years.
Lyn: Well, I do have a film agent, so they are working on it. So fingers crossed.
Vanessa: Yes! I can definitely see it. I can see it being brought to life. So, crossing our fingers.
We will see it on screen, but for now you can buy the books. I'll let you tell everyone where you can get your books.
Lyn: You can get it anywhere books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I mean, you go to any store, they have them and just Google The Tiger Mom's Tale, and it'll pop up.
Vanessa: Awesome. That is so great. So thank you so much. Lovely to have you in and best of luck in your launch. And can't wait to talk to you again.
Lyn: Thank you so much for having me today. That was great.