Turning Trauma into Purpose: Michelle Li's Journey as a Korean Adoptee and TV Journalist
Thrive Spice Podcast | Season 2 Episode 8
How do you turn trauma into purpose? This AAPI Heritage Month, get ready to be inspired as Michelle Li, TV journalist and Co-Founder of the #VeryAsian Foundation, opens up about her healing journey as a Korean adoptee and author. She's faced the "double shame" of not feeling Asian enough or American enough, and dealt with the trauma of racism both in and out of the newsroom. But Michelle didn't let those struggles defeat her. Instead, she turned them into purposeful action through the #VeryAsian Foundation and her children's book, A Very Asian Guide To Korean Food. She's bringing diverse AAPI representation to children's libraries and education systems across the US and shares her personal stories of healing racial trauma. You'll also learn about her emotional reunion with her birth family in Korea, the hilarious things mixed-race kids say about being Asian, and why Asian American history matters. Plus, we celebrate some of the best Korean American chefs and Midwest Asian history and culture.
About Vanessa Shiliwala (she/her): Vanessa is the Founder/CEO of Thrive Spice Media, a mental health podcast and leadership platform that seeks to amplify and empower AAPI leaders, creators, and changemakers. She is also an award-winning DEI advocate, speaker, senior marketing leader, mother, and NYU graduate. You can find her on instagram @thrivespice. To learn more about her Mental Health Masterclasses and Diversity & Inclusion leadership development workshops for AAPI, BIPOC, women, and LGBTQ+ ERGs and corporate groups, please go to https://www.thrivespicemedia.com.
About Michelle Li (she/her):
Michelle Lee is an award-winning veteran TV journalist and news anchor, and co-founder of the #VeryAsian Foundation, a non-profit focused on shining a light on Asian experiences through advocacy and celebration. You may have heard of her when she went viral back in early 2022 after receiving a racist voicemail about her TV broadcast, where she shared that one of her family traditions was eating Korean dumplings to celebrate the New Year.
Michelle is herself a Korean American adoptee and spent many years supporting adoptees through heritage camps and volunteer tours to Korea. She also launched a program to support Missouri children in foster care. Michelle's journalistic work has been honored with a National Peabody Award, several national Murrows, and multiple regional Emmys, often dealing with race or gender inequities. Michelle has appeared on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and the Washington Post. Michelle currently resides in St. Louis with her family. She is @MichelleLiTV on most platforms. A Very Asian Guide to Korean Food is her first children's book.
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Full Thrive Spice Podcast Interview: Turning Trauma into Purpose: Michelle Li’s Journey as a Korean Adoptee and TV Journalist
Vanessa Shiliwala: Hey everyone. It's Vanessa. Welcome to Thrive Spice, a podcast centered on the Asian American mental health experience while navigating career, family, wellness, and social empowerment. I'm your host Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala, a business leader and entrepreneur mother of two, and award-winning AAPI and mental health advocate.
Join me as I invite diverse business and political leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators to sharing their real raw mental health journeys, and practical advice on how they found their Thrive Spice: the joy that comes from finally owning our identity, power and worth. Please follow me @ThriveSpice on Instagram for videos and more mental health tips.
Lastly, don't forget to subscribe. All right, let's get ready to unpack some feelings and spill the tea.
Hey, everyone. Happy AAPI Heritage Month and Mental Health Awareness Month. In honor of both, I recently had the pleasure of giving a keynote and workshop at PubMatic, an ad tech company in New York City, on Intersectional Mental Health and How to Thrive as Your Authentic Self at Work. It's one of three new workshops I've developed for corporate ERGs and intersectional groups, including AAPI, BIPOC, women, LGBTQ, and neurodiverse folks. In addition to sharing my own mental health journey, I shared research and data that shows how race, gender, class, sexuality, religion, and ability impact our mental health experience, including practical tips on how to prevent burnout and implement neuroplasticity and a growth mindset in your daily life.
Just wanted to read a testimonial from the HR manager who said, "Vanessa hosted a fantastic mental health awareness workshop with a focus on our BIPOC, women, and LGBTQ+ employees. The content was engaging, well researched, and offered practical tips for preventing burnout and setting healthy boundaries.
Vanessa's vulnerability about her own mental health challenges created a safe space for others in the room to open up, leading to an honest dialogue around mental health. I'd recommend Vanessa to any organization looking to support employees on their mental health journeys."
Thank you so much to PubMatic for this incredible opportunity.
I actually stayed around for a few hours afterwards just talking to the employees.
It was a reminder that when we gather in community, it opens the doors to connection and healing. Another attendee said their biggest takeaway the best: "Mental health issues are just human being issues. We all have them, and recognizing that reduces the stigma for everyone." If you're interested in hosting a workshop or conversation like this for your organization, please reach out and email me at info@thrivespicemedia.com or send me a DM on LinkedIn or Instagram.
The link is in the show notes.
[preview] Michelle Li: "I'm a journalist for all, but like, the truth is, I have this lens because I'm an Asian woman. When it comes to finding the truth, I am always in seek of the truth. Yes. So the fact that like Asian Americans have contributed to American history, that we have things that have been 100% left out of history books.
I feel like that is a truth seeking journey that we all could get behind, All Americans. Let's talk about ways that everyone can see themselves in history, in American culture."
Vanessa Shiliwala: Our guest today on Thrive Spice is Michelle Lee, who's an award-winning veteran TV journalist and news anchor. You may have heard of her when she went viral back in early 2022 after receiving a racist voicemail when she was live on TV, talking about how she ate dumplings as a Korean tradition on New Year's, and the viewer had sent a voicemail, basically telling Michelle to keep her Korean to herself.
Her response to this racist voicemail actually became a global movement of unity for the community and the world, and caught the attention of the Ellen Show. Ellen DeGeneres' monetary gift of $15,000 helped start the seed money to create a non-profit focused on shining a light on Asian experiences through advocacy and celebration.
Michelle is herself a Korean American adoptee and spent many years supporting adoptees through heritage camps and volunteer tours to Korea. She also launched a program to support Missouri children in foster care.
All of this led to a congressional award in 2010. Michelle's journalistic work has been honored with a National Peabody Award, several national Murrows, and multiple regional Emmys, often dealing with race or gender inequities. Michelle has appeared on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and the Washington Post. Michelle currently resides in St. Louis with her family. She is @MichelleLiTV on most platforms. A Very Asian Guide to Korean Food is her first children's book. We're so excited to talk to Michelle today. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today. We're so excited to have you here at Thrive Spice.
I've been following you for a while, um, even before you went viral with very Asian Oh my gosh. And I think actually I started this podcast about a year and a half ago, and you were actually one of my first followers. Oh. So feel like we like saw each other. Yeah. We were like, Okay, I see you girl . And um, I'm also Asian American from the Midwest.
I was like, Oh, this is interesting. And I'm also a mom of young kids, so I was like, okay, like I feel like this is someone who I can really connect with. But I didn't realize you were an adoptee until recently. So I was just kinda like learning more about you. And I also grew up from the Midwest where there truly were not a lot of Asians.
So. Yeah. Um, I can only imagine that's another layer just to peel back in terms of, you know, growing up in, in the Midwest I was also one of like a handful of Asians in my high school, and of those actually at least half were adopted. So I think it's pretty, pretty common out there. So I'd love to actually learn a little bit more about your own mental health journey as a Korean adoptee raised by white parents.
How did that impact your sense of belonging and identity? Especially when it came to culture and community?
Michelle Li: Well, , thanks for everything. You know, I feel like it's been a journey and I think so much of it intersects with like, you know, growing up, going through adolescence, living in the Midwest discovering who you are and really, sometimes I felt.
Um, totally alone, you know, I mean, ideally being the only person in your class, you know, or something like that. But you are actually alone. But that doesn't necessarily mean you're lonely all the time, you know? So I, I definitely feel like I had to navigate through extra challenges that other people didn't have to navigate through.
And then at the same time, there are times when I feel like, Oh my gosh, I had the most wonderful, beautiful childhood. You know, we had so much fun. I felt mostly accepted, but you can always feel like I remember like when we started dating, like when my friends, you know, and I started dating, there would definitely be people.
Who just weren't interested in Asian girls, you know? Or were really into Asian girls, right. So, you know, Right. And so to me it's like having that extra thing to, to deal with sometimes felt really, um, uh, overbearing. You know? And I think the. The thing that adoptees, at least when I talk to people, you kind of feel like a double shame.
And I, I'm not ashamed of being an adopted, I'm not ashamed of being Asian. I'm not ashamed of being Korean. But as a kid I would get made fun of occasionally for being different, Right? For being Asian. Um, or like we would be learning about the Korean War and I would feel everyone's eyeballs on me.
Like I would know that answers or something just by being Korean. Um, but then when people would make fun of me, I sometimes wouldn't, like, I would also be like, I don't understand the joke because maybe like I hadn't been exposed to the things that they were talking about or I just wasn't Asian enough to even defend myself in that way and didn't have anyone backing me up cuz they weren't into the right cultural things, you know, like they didn't know, Like I just felt like double shame. Like I was like embarrassed to be Asian, but then I was embarrassed to be adopted cuz I didn't have anything or anyone to really back me up to be like, well that was a stupid joke because it doesn't even make sense.
Cuz if you knew then you would know this, you know? Um, I don't know if I'm making sense or not, but I feel like I always felt like, Oh my God, I have no idea what people are talking about. And then that was before the days of Google where you could just Google everything to, to learn, you know?
So you were like, I don't understand that. Yes. Um, and there was a time, um, when I was like, in junior high where, when Full Metal Jacket came out, that movie and that like ruined my whole adolescence because people, I mean, kids were so mean and they were like throwing money at me and like saying $5, you know, like all this, like all these terrible thinkings and I felt like I didn't even know what they were talking about, you know?
You know. So that was like embarrassing, you know, every day I was like, Oh my God, what's gonna happen to me today? And back then, I also think people didn't look at racism as a bad thing necessarily. It was just like, Oh, Michelle, get over it. You know? Mm-hmm. . Um, I remember one time a kid, oh God, he called me at "gook" or something.
It was, you know, terrible and he was doing other things and I told him to F off, and I got in trouble. I remember I got in trouble at school because I had used a cuss word and I had, like, back then, that's when they paddled kids too. Um, you know, consistently. So I was so, it was like, Michelle, if you ever say that word again, you're gonna get the paddle.
And I was like, Well, what about, what about this kid? He was making fun of me, you know? And it was like, No, you just can't cuss. So there were just so many hard things to navigate. And I think with my parents being white, um, they were also like, Ah, I don't know. You know, like they were definitely my biggest advocates.
But at the same time, they were also , you know, navigating this on their own too. And, um, and being the minority, even though they're not Asian, but being the minority family to be like, Well, I don't, we don't know how to deal with this. And you're probably gonna encounter this again in your lifetime, so you're, we're gonna have to figure this out.
You know, But there was no, like, I'm gonna go to the school board and I'm gonna make changes. There was, there was none of that, you know, So I think it was just an extra layer to navigate, and sometimes could be really challenging, really hard.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. I can definitely relate and empathize with a lot of that experience, even though I'm not adopted.
But growing up in Wisconsin, like I also got made fun of really early, you know, I had kids like doing the eye-pull thing. Mm-hmm. Like, I got called like Banana, um, you know, even like growing up in high school and I always felt like I can identify with that double shame you're talking about because you feel like you're supposed to fit into one way and then, um, you know, just because of the way you look.
And then it's hard when other people are, you know, they have assumptions about you and they don't match up and you just constantly feel you're disappointing some other side.
Michelle Li: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I think that navigating like a multifaceted identity is something that actually breeds a lot of resilience. Um, when you're a kid and you're growing up and you kind of have to grow up pretty fast and learn how to stand up for yourself.
And I can definitely see that in you, that you learned that at a young age. At the same time, it's not fair, right? Like we shouldn't have to learn how to demand justice at such a, a young age. Um, so I can definitely just empathize with that experience and I can see how it kind of molded you into the way you are today.
And I think that's so beautiful. Um, I also
Michelle Li: thank you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course, and I feel like Asian American adoptee stories are finally entering mainstream media with Kevin Kreider from Bling Empire.
Michelle Li: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Shiliwala: and I also recently watched, Found, that adoptee film about three Chinese American sisters are trying to find their [birth parents].
Michelle Li: [gasps] I have not seen that yet. It's on my list.
Vanessa Shiliwala: It's on Netflix. I was like, ugly crying by the end. I was just like, oh my God. This is like, it's so emotional and I don't know if you ever tried to find your birth parents, you know, What's your journey in terms of like,
Michelle Li: Oh yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: that whole narrative?
Michelle Li: Well, I actually, um, just from being in adoptee groups, I feel like my story is very similar in many ways, and then very unique in many ways. Mm-hmm. When I was 18, I went to Korea on a, what they, I think back then they called them birth land tours or motherland tours.
And so I went back to the motherland, and I ended up meeting my birth family on accident.
Vanessa Shiliwala: What?
Michelle Li: It was completely not planned. And that's not, and like we didn't follow protocol, so to speak, but, um, you can go back and look at your file. So that's what I did. I said, you know, I'd like to look at my file. And, I remember I had never really allowed myself to want to look for my birth family. And I think, you know, I think I was always curious, but at the same time, happy enough to not want to let that surface, you know? But always kind of wondered like, I wonder who I look like or where this comes from, you know? Yeah. And, um, but anyway, so when I got to Korea, it really hit me because I was like, Oh my gosh, like Korea's the size of Indiana, you know, like every woman I was looking at, like, could this be my, my birth mother, you know?
I went to the office, I looked at my file and I said, Okay, can you help me find my birth mother? And the social worker said, No, that's not how you do it. Like, you've gotta go back home. You've gotta fill out some paperwork, and then if we find her, you can come back. And I remember I was like, What?
I'm not, I'm not coming back. And I started bawling, you know, Like hyperventilating, kind of bawling. I think just the weight of it hit me and what ended up happening was the social worker felt so bad for me that when I left the office that day, like I left the office thinking I would never find them and I just needed to move on.
But the social worker had apparently just made a phone call, called my birth mother, um, and said, Hey, did you have a daughter on this day? Because she's here and she wants to meet you. And so the long story short of it is that my birth parents are still married and I have two older sisters who are like full blooded sisters and then one younger sister.
And my two older sisters are exactly 12 months apart. So you can imagine, you know, And then I was the third child. And so when my mother was pregnant with me, my father was working on a ship, like overseas. And she went to a free clinic to give birth and the stories have kind of changed just a little bit, but my understanding is that no one visited her in the hospital and you know, here she had a three year old and a two year old, and then was about ready to have a newborn, and she just relinquished me on the spot.
And so she told my birth father that I had died at birth.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my god.
Michelle Li: And so when he came home, he got her pregnant right away. And then my youngest sister is, I think, um, I think she's 14 months younger than me. So she had four kids in like, Four and a half, five years. I mean, it was insane.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Holy cow.
Michelle Li: Yeah. So she kept it a secret until I was on her doorstep. And then if you can imagine, you know, telling your spouse or your partner, um, Oh yeah, I remember that baby. I said that died of birth? She's here. You know, um, first of all, while she lived. Second of all, she's here. And so, they had to tell my sisters.
And at the time, my sisters, two of my sisters were in college. You know, it was just a very big, kind of scary, crazy ordeal. And then fast forward, I helped my second oldest sister immigrate to the United States, and she lived with me for a while. I put her on Bumble, so she met her husband, . Oh my gosh.
A guy named Steve from Minnesota .
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my God, this is, so, I, I just wanna pause right there. This is like a movie. Like I cannot even believe this, and then you're such a good soul. Like you, you actually are trying to help your family and like, did that bring you closure? Like tell me about like that healing process, what was that like?
Michelle Li: Oh gosh. You know, it's really interesting because I think when you don't have time to really prepare for something, it feels kind of like trauma. And then at the same time it feels kind of like, well, we gotta go with it because yeah. You know, we don't have a choice. Um, and so now, if I think about it, I met them when I was 18 and here I am 42, almost 43, So I've known them more than I haven't known them, you know, longer, they've been a part of my life. And, um, closure's a really tough word. And we talk about this a lot in the adoption community because I don't believe there's ever closure.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mmmn.
Michelle Li: Because like I met my birth family, but, you know, um, Korean culture and a lot of Asian cultures in general like to save face.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh yeah.
Michelle Li: So I still don't know a lot of things about my birth, even though I've met my birth family and I have gone back to Korea and have taken lots of trips back and forth. And I still don't really know where I was born. I still don't really know the circumstances of everything.
It took like 10 years for my birth family to tell other people about me.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow.
Michelle Li: And so that felt like a second rejection or something.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Li: There's just been lots of ups and downs and, um, . I would say overall, it's like any other family , you know? Sure. But when you have two families and two cultures and two, you know, like, sometimes I look at my Korean family, I'm like, That could've been me.
You know, I could've been in, in Korea growing up. And how different my life would've been. It's like Sliding Doors, you know? It's like the movie. Yeah. Where you're just like, Oh my gosh. So closure's really hard. Um, and I think adoptees search for closure and then when they have a reunion or something like that, they realize that there's really no such thing as closure because it's not a linear kind of experience and everyone has a different experience.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow.
Michelle Li: But yeah, I would say we've come full circle in many ways, and then to have one of my sisters in the United States has been pretty amazing. I haven't met very many adoptees who have helped their families immigrate to the United States and, um, and like live with them here, you know?
Yeah. I mean, if someone's listening and they're like, Oh my gosh, that's me, then I would love to connect cuz I haven't found someone like that yet.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. I think you're right. It's like every story is so different in that community. Would you say that, you know, being a part of that community, of the adoptee community was something that really helped you through a lot of these difficult moments?
What other resources or support would you recommend?
Michelle Li: Um, I loved it. I would say the adoptee community was really important to me in my formative years. In some ways I've discovered what a privilege that was to be able to have that in my life. When I was a teenager, I started going to Korean heritage camps and I actually wasn't really that interested in Korean culture.
Um, you know, I wasn't like going to summer camp to get the kimchi. I was like, you know, I just really loved, um, meeting other adoptees cuz so many of us had the same stories. We, we were the only ones in our class. We were growing up in rural Midwest, you know, or something like that. And I just thought how I wasn't able to see what that did for my confidence. I mean, I wasn't like an overly confident kid or anything, but I mean, internally, what that was doing to my confidence as a human being, until I was, well until my twenties and thirties going, Gosh, that really was a powerful experience for me.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Li: to see and know that there were other kids like that. It didn't prevent racism or discrimination or, you know, anything like that. But it made me think like, well I know I'm not the only one cause I have a friend in Parsons, Kansas who's just the same or Yeah. Or you know, or outside of Dallas or whatever.
And that did a lot. And I think that's what adoption groups do now for people. Adults even. I still have met so many adults who are just now, exploring Korean heritage. I don't know how to explain it, but I, I even experienced this still. Um, I can feel so intimidated being around other Korean people.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Michelle Li: or other Asian people in general.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Michelle Li: And, um, like pronunciations or food things. You know, I sometimes I'm like, Oh man, am I really qualified enough to be Asian enough to talk about this? I didn't grow up on the coast. I don't have Asian parents, you know? Mm-hmm.
But then I , you know? But then you go out into the street and you represent every day. Exactly. And that doesn't, doesn't stop you from getting made fun of or...
Vanessa Shiliwala: right, right. Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. There's like this weird imposter syndrome that happens, especially when you grow up in the Midwest.
And like you, I'm like a little bit less fluent. I've been called banana or white washed. I sometimes can have that anxiety about being with a lot of Asian Americans. Especially when I moved to New York City at the age of 18 to go to college at NYU, and I was like suddenly surrounded by coastal Asians.
They were like, Yeah, we don't have people like you in the Midwest. Like, what do you mean you're from Wisconsin? That, that's impossible. And like, yeah, it was just trying to figure out like, where do I fit in? There is this kind of like, as you said, like, Am I Asian enough?
Am I too Asian? And then, you know, I think whenever we experience racism or, you know, feeling "less than", it just reminds us that to most of the world, we look the same to them. Right. And I actually wanna, this is a perfect segue into my next question, which is really about representation as well as I know you've done some recent work with the STAATUS index.
Michelle Li: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Which reported that 42% of Americans can't name a famous Asian American, despite the Vice President being one, and 80% of the AAPI community say they face racism in the U.S., which is not news to any of us who are in that community. A lot of your work I know deals with these kind of gender and race inequities, and I remember you had posted something on your Instagram a while back sharing how you had faced explicit discrimination in job interviews as an Asian American journalist.
And for me growing up, I know there was like Connie Chung and that was it in terms of like who was out there on screen. So I'd love to kind of like take it back and understand, you know, when did you know you wanted to be a TV broadcast journalist? And what do you think has kept you motivated and proud to be very Asian , with the recent spike in anti-Asian hate crimes,
and of course the very public incident you endure.
Michelle Li: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So many. Oh, so good. . Well, going back to the STAATUS index, I feel like that is such a powerful data set, you know, where we can say no one can name. Mm-hmm. A prominent Asian American. I mean, it was like Bruce Lee.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. Right. Not even alive. Yeah.
Michelle Li: Right. I mean, you know, and it's to me, it's just telling. I'm like, you don't even know. Have you guys ever heard of Bruno Mars or Olivia Rodrigo? You know, I mean, there's just so many other Asian people that I'm like, Wow, that's insane. Also, there was another piece of information I thought was really incredible out of the STAATUS index that said something like, foreign born Asians living in the United States felt more of a sense of belonging in the United States than Asian Americans born in America.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my God.
Michelle Li: And I can, I can kind of see that when I look at my sister, even though she's a green card holder, because she's like, I think she knows who she is cuz she.
was, you know, raised in Korea. Mm-hmm. , and she loves the United States, but she just has like a very sunshine, sunshiney look at the United States, you know, Or like, or, or people I think in a way find her, and I don't wanna speak for her, you know, but sometimes I definitely think people see her as a novelty.
Like, Oh, it's so exciting. Your sister's gonna teach us how to do such and such. You know, almost like, Oh, this is my Korean friend. You know? I think she likes it, you know? Just like if you were an American or if you were a white American living in Korea, oh my gosh, you're like a superstar, you know?
Yeah. Um, so I always think that the STAATUS index is really fascinating. Uh, as a journalist, myself, uh, people used to say horrific things about like me in terms of a human being. But at the same time, people don't say it now. Mm-hmm. but I don't see things changing at a rate that is, um, equitable.
Mm-hmm. , you know, um, for example, I remember people used to say, uh, well Michelle, you can't get a job here cuz there's already an Asian person here. Right. And I'd be like, okay. Because that, I mean, any Asian person who's, you know, older than 30 has probably experienced that. Mm-hmm. . Um, I used to also, because I grew up near Kansas City, only wanted to work in Kansas City or St. Louis, and was always told, you know, for whatever reason, you know, wasn't gonna get the job. But I knew at some point when I was actually ready and capable, you know, like when, you know, like, no, I'm, I'm qualified for this job, you know? Oh yeah. Um, and I'm good enough. It's not just the qualifications, but I was like, I'm good enough.
I know I am. And people would find a reason not to hire me, and I would always see who it was. And it was always, honestly, it was always a, a blonde person or someone in the Black community. And I think because, um, even when I moved to St. Louis, there was an alderman in the city who said to an Asian alderman, In fact, the first Asian American alderman elected in St. Louis, there was a statement where this older, Black alderman said, Well, I know you're new here, but St. Louis is a black and white city. And I don't mean to cause a beef, you know, in St. Louis. But I mean, that is the sentiment that like, Asian people don't exist in the Midwest or don't exist in St. Louis.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Li: And so when you're hiring for a news job, you wanna be a part of the representation. You cannot like be in St. Louis and have an all white like staff. Right. You know, you just can't. But like, but are Asians a part of that conversation? You know, if your news director doesn't believe that Asian people exist in the Midwest or, you know, doesn't have any kind of idea that Asian people are in your neighborhood, then you think, okay, well they don't make up enough of the population to really wanna hire someone like you, you know?
Mm-hmm. . Even when I worked in Seattle, I worked at King Five, which is a legacy station and I love the station so much. But they never put two Asian people together, even though, in Seattle and on the west coast, it's often the majority minority is Asian. And I asked a veteran anchor, by the name of Lori Matsukawa, and this is like not a secret cuz you could just turn on the news, you know?
Mm-hmm. and, and notice for yourself. But I asked Lori, who was like a trailblazer in the Asian American Journalist Association, and she retired a few years ago. I said, Hey, did you ever anchor with an Asian co-anchor? And she said, Never. They always put me with somebody else.
And so, you know, you would never blink twice at two blondes anchoring together. Right? Yeah. But two Asian people. Oh my gosh. That's just crazy.
Vanessa Shiliwala: What's happening?
Michelle Li: Yeah. And that's still an issue today. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's still an issue today. I remember I was in a newsroom and the general manager of the station, the person who runs news and operations and promotions and marketing, someone said, Hey, are we gonna maybe potentially have a Spanish speaking newscast?
Cuz we had kind of a large population who spoke Spanish, and our competitor was doing it. So that's why they asked. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, I remember our general manager said, Well, you know, minorities only make up 3% of the population, so we just don't have a business plan for them. And I was, I was shocked that someone would say it like that because we had just covered a tornado where a bunch of communities that were primarily Spanish speaking communities had some trouble with the tornadoes that we had just recently had because they had not had that experience and there was no one kind of advocating for them during tornado season.
And I had covered a man who lost his baby in a tornado. But anyway, I just, I was so shocked by that. Because I mean, like but so that means you have 0% representation. To me it's like, it has more to do with just knowing who's in your market, knowing the service that you needed to provide.
Like even in St. Louis, we had a Chinatown that was a hundred years old, so it had been in St. Louis for almost a century, but if you go around the table or the community and you say, Hey, do you know anything about Hop Alley? People won't know what you're talking about. And to me, you can't say that St. Louis is a black and white city knowing that we had a Chinatown for a hundred years here, starting in the 1860s. You know what I'm saying? It's just this idea of like, Asian people have had a place in history in the United States, Asian people have existed in literally every single town in the United States.
So this erasure of history is an issue, and then it just kind of compounds to where we just write people out of existence. Mm-hmm. , the Asian American Journalist Association looks at the top 20 broadcast markets, where like 46% of Asian Americans live are in the top 20 markets and we were grossly underrepresented.
Mm-hmm. on television in your local news. So, you know, if like, if you're looking at Wisconsin, you're looking at Milwaukee, you're looking at Madison, Wausau, you know. To me, if you're not seeing that representation, then you don't even know that people exist in your neighborhood.
Right? Right. And then you grow up and maybe you run Kohl's because you're from Wisconsin or whatever, and so then you're not looking at anything from a different lens because you just didn't grow up thinking that Asian people existed in Wisconsin. Right, Yeah. Or something like that. But it's just this idea of like constantly having to prove to people that we've been around, that we exist, that we have contributions in our communities, and that we deserve a seat at the table.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, Amen.
Michelle Li: Yeah. But like, yeah, I've had a lot of challenges in my career. Mm-hmm. , uh, trying to get hired. I used to have people say, You'll never have a career unless you go to the west coast. Yeah. You know? And I was like, But I'm from the Midwest. I wanna be in the Midwest.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so then I went to the West Coast , you know, and I, and I loved it there too. It was hard. It's been hard and challenging to be in broadcasting. Um, I also, my name was not Li when I started, but after like 10 years of being my adoptive name, like my actual name, when I finally left Missouri the first time, after like, 10 years of being in the business, I changed my name to Michelle Li. And that's another thing. I have a friend in Seattle, I mean, that's a big market. Her last name, and she's written about this, her last name is Chhuon.
Siemny Chhuon. And, um, a white news director said, Chhuon is too hard to pronounce and people won't remember it, so we need you to change your name to Kim. And so she was Siemny Kim on air. So she was like, Now people don't know that I'm Cambodian. They think that I'm korean.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my God. So it wasn't even her ethnicity.
Michelle Li: Right.
My god. So it's, it's just this constant like whitewashing that people have made us do to fit in these boxes. And in Seattle, first of all, anyone can say Chhuon, like anyone. It's not that hard. Yeah. You know? And secondly, in a city like Seattle, like, you know what I'm saying? So I, I think Asian American women especially have had a hard time, just, you know, getting hired.
But then I think of Asian American men have had a much more challenging time throughout the history at least in television news.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, that's unfortunate. That's a whole nother topic we could spend a long time talking about is kind of this whole desexualization of Asian men and hypersexualization of Asian women, and both hurt. It hurts us in many ways, in, in a myriad of ways. And thank you so much for speaking on this. I see you're, you're so passionate about it and that's why I originally wanted you on the podcast. I was like, She gets it. Um, she's not afraid to speak up because a lot of times we are silenced or we are gaslit when we say, Hey, this happened to me.
Yeah. Like, Oh, you know, you're imagining it. Or their narratives are stuck in, you know, a, a time from literally decades ago, and that's why data is so important. Yeah. Because we can say here, did you know that Asian Americans are actually, they're the largest, fastest growing minority in the U.S.
They have over a trillion dollars in buying power. Mm-hmm. . And they're projected to outpace the growth of any other racial group. And so actually it does matter. Yes. And then I think. The other part of it is there's this impossibility in their minds of, you know, perhaps Asians and Asian Americans could actually appeal to non-Asians or, you know, and the rest of America.
So I think that's, that's where I kind of find disconnect, where, you know, it's like, okay, if you're, you're otherized and because you're otherized, there's just no way that anyone could ever relate to you on any aspect. And I find that so untrue in my lived experience. And I also can relate to a lot of other minority groups, whether they're black or, you know, Latinx or queer.
You know, there was something that we all have in common in terms of feeling that marginalization and wanting to heard.
Michelle Li: Yeah. Oh my gosh. And I just realized, I was like, Man, I think I just blacked out in the last comment. Cause I just was like going, going, going, and I was like, Am I making sense? You know, I always try to say this.
And in terms of like the likability factor or like the connection piece. I mean, my goodness, it's so crazy to me that people have kind of made us perpetually foreign. Mm-hmm. . And that's a thing that always made me so mad as an adoptee and as a Midwesterner because I was like, I am you. I grew up in this state.
Like my parents are white, my husband is white, my son is white and Asian. It's like, I didn't wanna sell out my parents. Mm-hmm. , um, because I'm Asian, you know what I mean? Like in this Very Asian movement, I was like, I had so many messages from people who are like, they would say, I never felt like I could say anything before.
Cuz I am a quarter Japanese or half Korean. And I was like, we're not in the business of purity tests. You know, like, like, um, and or because I don't present as Asian. You know, we had, I had a lot of that. And to me it's like, just let people bring their full humanity to every space. We find connection in so many different ways.
You know, my parents, you know, did they know everything? Did they have the right resources? No, of course not. But like, they were fierce advocates for like me and for like my friends, you know? So I wasn't gonna sell them out in the Very Asian moment to be like, white people can't be connected to us, you know?
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I certainly didn't want that for my son, you know? Um, who's mixed race and yeah. When I talk to people, I always make people aware. Like I have a strong tie to immigration. I believe in immigration. You know, like, so I'm always like, don't think that I'm one way either.
you know, But I used to get made fun of by Korean people for being whitewashed, you know, people would say you're whitewashed. And I would say, Well, I don't know what you want from me. Like, I can't, I can't change the decisions that were made for me. I cannot change the fact that I was, you know, taken outta my home country and moved to Missouri.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm. there is nothing to apologize for.
Michelle Li: Yeah. And like, you can't help that you grew up in Wisconsin. Yeah. Even though I will say I love Wisconsin, it was like one of my favorite places in the entire world. And you can, you know, maybe. Have a different opinion or whatever, But like when I lived in Madison, I mean, I was in love with Wisconsin so much.
I thought it was so utopic. I was a huge Packers fan, Huge Badgers fan. I love the winter, you know, all these things . And also I felt like Wisconsin as a, at least for my experience in Wisconsin, it was so progressive. Mm-hmm. and I felt, I felt supported. That was the first state I felt supported as an Asian American.
Oh. Um, but maybe that was in Madison. Like, I don't know. That was a different vibe, you know,
Vanessa Shiliwala: It definitely is. I had a sibling who went to University of Wisconsin Madison, and they definitely had a very like, liberated, um, progressive experience there. And so I know they wouldn't change anything about going to Madison and, and they also found like that community there. And so I think that's, that's so beautiful that we can find these pockets of community. Mm-hmm. . And I know that, my sibling certainly shares that. And I definitely want to talk about your children's book Launch, A Very Asian Guide to Korean Food. As a mom, and someone who also endured a few stinky lunchbox moments in, in their childhood.
Uh, I wish I had this book when I was a kid. And I'm so glad that our children will have this book. I was like, we need one for like every racial group.
Michelle Li: YES!
Vanessa Shiliwala: Because I don't want anyone else to have any of these stinky lunchbox moments where their food is, you know, otherized. And they're, they're made to feel ashamed of what they're eating.
And by the way, it's not just, you know, as a kid, like I remember in the workforce, if I dare to bring any ethnic food, And into the office and eat it at my desk, someone would always comment like, What's that smell and like mm-hmm. . And I just felt so much shame that like, I wasn't that, you know, person eating salads every day.
I was like, I enjoy a Cambodian fish sandwich or pad Thai, or maybe I wanted dumplings or, you know, just something that was like warm and tasty. So, um, tell me, you know, I wanna hear everything about, you know, what inspired you to write this book. What was that process like? It's such a beautifully illustrated and written book and I love the direction that it's taking us.
I feel like there needs to be even more.
Michelle Li: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. You know, Karen Chan from Gloo Books is really the person who started it at all. She wrote a book called, What's That? And when I went, when I went viral, she sent it to me and it's interesting because, uh, I read the book to my son.
I loved her book. Mm-hmm. , and I read the book to my son, and my son thought he was the main character. Oh. And so I realized in that moment, like, holy crap. I don't think that's happened before. Mm-hmm. Where my son thought he was the main character in a book. Yes. I have read him like a million books, you know?
Yeah. And so we just love the book. We loved the book, and it is about stinky lunches, . And so I reached out to, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this book is so amazing. My kid loves the book. We started talking and then she was like, Why don't you write a book?
Mm-hmm. . And so, um, and Karen's story is really amazing because she was like, I, I want more inclusive materials out there. And so she has a publishing company and I just, it felt really in line with like my beliefs mm-hmm. and so, and, um, because she had, you know, also navigated through that herself, to start her own publishing company.
Write her own book. Then I was like, Yes, sign me up. I'm, I'm in. And we worked together. I actually worked with my sister a lot cuz I was like, Hey, can you help me with this? And I remember a lot of times, you know, I would look up something and my sister would be like, Oh yeah, I didn't know that.
That's a really fascinating thing. or she would add or her own anecdotes, you know, where like, oh, we used to make kimbap all the time and give extra for our teachers, in the summer. You know, you go through life always having imposter syndrome. I mean, even when I went viral for example, I said, you know, uh, I had dumpling soup.
Cuz that's what a lot of Korean people do. And how many Korean people, um, in Korea especially, just like railed me because technically it's rice cake soup, you know, that you put dumplings in. And I was like, Oh my God. So then I felt even like embarrassed, like, Oh my gosh, here's the adoptee not speaking, you know, properly.
So then I was like nervous about the book , you know, like I was like, I know what I like and, and I wanna write about things, but also, um, oh God, please help me . You know? So anyway, it was just a really fun thing to do because we were like, Okay, let's talk about these foods, let's talk about fusion foods.
Cuz you know, there's not a lot of stuff about Korean tacos or just fun things too that make it seem, um, I guess kind of Americanized, right? Mm-hmm. like, um, kimchi fried Rice, you know, all they're just fun, fun things. Mm-hmm. and so, We just put the book together and then Karen found the illustrator, Rebecca, and she's amazing.
I, to me,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Gorgeous. Yeah.
Michelle Li: The book is not, I mean, my words were my words, but like, the illustrations are what makes the book, I think. We even did small inclusiveness as part of the book too. Like there's a, you might not notice it, but there's a man who uses a wheelchair in the book. Mm-hmm. . Um, there's a little girl who has a cochlear implant.
Like very small, subtle things. But I hope that little readers see themselves in it because, um, we just find that that's really important.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Yeah. I think intersectionality is so key right now, because there isn't just one version of what it means to be Korean or Korean American.
Yeah. Or Asian American. And enjoy the food of that culture. I love the book because I felt like it was really a tool to help have those important conversations, but also heal like racial trauma across generations.
Michelle Li: Wow. Really ?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. Yes. Because I've found a lot of that with, um, with my children.
I have two young daughters, a two year old and four year old, and especially in the wake of the anti-Asian hate crimes and Atlanta spa shootings. Even before then, I was buying a lot of books by Asian authors and even non-Asian authors because I wanted to expand their minds and see a world that they, that I didn't grow up honestly with.
Yeah. To your point about your son seeing himself as a main character, I feel like so happy that my girls have multiple books where they're like, Oh, that's me. Like they literally point at the picture, they're like, That's me, that's Mila, that's Ariana. Like Eyes that Kiss in the Corners by Joanna Ho is like one of our favorites.
And so, she's always like, Oh, the older sister is Mila and the younger sister is Ariana. I just love that because I didn't have that growing up, and I think it's just a human yearning, right? To see ourselves represented and yeah. I think a lot of us have coped for so long without seeing that. You know, we've gotten by, we were in survival mode, we're fine, but like mm-hmm.
you know, as a parent, I felt like I had to deal with a lot of those issues as an adult and be like, Oh, wow. Like now that I'm parenting someone I have to deal with a lot of my own stuff that I didn't necessarily think about before. So I'm curious for you, like, did that come up, you know, parenting your son?
Michelle Li: Oh my gosh, yes. And it's, it, it drives like so many of my decisions, you know, because, um, yeah, like it didn't really bother me that I didn't see myself. But then when you look back and you go, What in the world? Like, we've been advocating for everyone but ourselves. Yeah. You know, and you end up being a part of the system that is designed to erase you basically, You know?
Vanessa Shiliwala: I know. Because that's how we survived.
Michelle Li: Yeah. Or like, yeah. I'm not even gonna try to support this other Asian person coming into the newsroom because I don't want her to take my job. I mean, I don't feel like that now. Right. But, you know, you, you definitely could be like that, right?
Yeah. Um,
Vanessa Shiliwala: that's what we saw.
Michelle Li: Yeah. Cuz there can't be two of you, so one of you've gotta duke it out. Yeah. Um, and then even just like, you know, never seeing a, a dark haired girl, you know, in a book or something, you know, just little things like that where it's just one brush stroke would've made the difference.
Yeah. And um, and then, you know, I think now because my son is mixed race, I'm also like looking at material that's a little bit more nuanced and then I Think like, oh my gosh, is my story that unique where I'm an adoptee having a mixed race son? And then I'm like, of course not.
There are like millions of adoptees, you know,
Vanessa Shiliwala: we just didn't see or hear those stories.
Yeah. And I can definitely relate because I also have multiracial children. They're also half Indian. Mm-hmm. . And so I've also, I feel like I've had to represent like so many like sides of culture, but to me it's a privilege.
Yeah. To me it's like I get to, you know, amplify so many different ways of being in different cultures and different religions and we have books about like hijab and uh, and Muslim culture and just multitudes. So I feel like where we grew up in a world of like scarcity and being put into a box, my hope and wish is that we grow up in our children and we kind of heal ourselves in a world of multiples and two things can be true.
And you know, we don't have to just fit into one box. And so that's what I love about the fact that you are this author of this book on Korean food because
Michelle Li: Oh my gosh.
Vanessa Shiliwala: It doesn't have to be, you know, the foremost expert on , you know, Korean food, who's been a, I don't know, sixth generation chef or something.
Like, it doesn't have to be that person. Right, Right. And I feel like food history is something that's being rewritten constantly. Mm-hmm. and people are innovating on cuisine and kind of adding their own flavors and takes on things. So it, to me,
it felt right.
Michelle Li: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much. even though I had this name, Michelle Li, you know, and even though I was like presenting as an Asian person on TV and all these things, I still would get nervous around like being around Korean people Yeah.
Or something. Sure, sure. And I remember, um, one time I was in the newsroom and this woman who's Korean American, asked me to translate something for her. And I was like, But don't you know Korean? Cause I'm like, You have Korean parents, you go to Korea all the time, like, don't you know Korean?
And she's like, I don't speak Korean. And really, that's all it took. And granted I was in my thirties mm-hmm. , but it reminded me of like, you know what, she never doubted she was Korean. . Mm-hmm. even though she couldn't speak the language. And here I was, you know, studying my ass off, like taking, you know, two years of Korean language, you know, to like, yeah.
Try to speak and try to do all these things. And because I wasn't feeling like I was Korean enough mm-hmm. , um, to talk, to speak the language, to write a book, you know, like all these things. But at the end of the day, we all have to be intentional about the culture that we're bringing into our lives.
And we all have, as an Asian, especially Asian Americans, we have another subculture, you know? Mm-hmm. . Um, and so like, there's no shame in learning. There's no shame in exploring. And you are absolutely right. We cannot live in our own little box, you know? We are not, we. Our next generation of kids likely will not be in a silo.
You know, So like Absolutely. Um, and so yes, like when, when we bring Polish culture into our lives or Korean culture into our lives, cuz my son has Polish, Dutch and Korean
Vanessa Shiliwala: awesome.
Michelle Li: Then it's like, you know, that's all an effort because my husband doesn't know his Polish background either, you know, so, Right.
Um, it's just like, let's just chill out , you know, about some of this stuff that, you know, some of the race and the culture wars. Oh my gosh. You know, like, Yeah. Um, I, we have a right to be proud of who we are.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely. And I think the operative word there is learning, right? Yeah. We can, we all have the opportunity and the right to learn more about our culture, about other cultures.
Like there, there shouldn't be these boundaries around, Oh, I don't need to learn about that, or I'm not even curious. So yeah, I think having that curiosity I think is something that your book will definitely spark. And I love that about that because I think there needs to be more curiosity, um, because that's what leads to learning and connection.
And I love that the book also touched on community. I think so much of Asian culture is unspoken. Yeah. So I feel like food is like the unofficial love language of Asian culture.
Yeah. It's, it's so
Michelle Li: Have you eaten yet? That's always like, so,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Right, right. That's like, that's really what, what matters. And so I think.
Really, this is actually a book about love and community because that's how we share love and community. And so I think that's kind of like an introduction to what makes our culture beautiful. And I'm not even sure if that's unique. I feel like a lot of cultures, you know, speak through food and so it's almost like, Hey, this is what you think might kind of smell funny or look funny.
It's actually just another way of saying, I love you and I care about you. Yeah. And I wish that more people could, could view that.
Michelle Li: I mean, if you grew up in Wisconsin and let's say you are, um, into Norwegian culture or whatever, I mean, how many times have you been like, lutefisk, really?
We're eating that . Yeah. You know, Right. But like, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna eat this lutefisk, I'm gonna eat this stinky cheese or whatever. And just, Or even just culture, you know,
Vanessa Shiliwala: hot dogs, you know, they also own sausages. Like, I'm sure if we all really learned how sausages were made, we would be like, Why are we doing this?
Right. But, you know, no one's questioning it. And that's also like a privilege, right. So I hope that one day our food is accepted and just inspires curiosity rather than criticism. And I think that this book is such an important step because we do have to start young, because I remember a lot of that criticism started when I was a little kid.
Michelle Li: Oh my gosh.
Very young. Very young, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you remember those incidents for so many years. Mm-hmm. . Um, I'd love to just switch gears and ask a few quick questions. Okay. To help the audience get to know you. It's just a little more like hearted . So we ask everyone this, but what's your Thrive Spice? Like a daily habit or routine that helps you manage your own mental health. .
Michelle Li: Um, I always try to listen to music every day. Mm-hmm. , um, music really is uplifting and it puts me in a better space. I think. I feel like I, I leave the universe sometimes, you know, like I just am, like I'm in my own little world and, um, I think it's really, um, helpful for a lot of people to get out of their own heads.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Yeah.
Anything that's on repeat lately for you?
Michelle Li: For whatever reason, I've really been into Coldplay right now, like old Coldplay songs. Yeah. Um, but I would say like Brandy Carlisle is one of my favorites. Um, I'm still a Red Hot Chili Peppers person and like a White Stripes person. Nice. So just kinda depends on, Oh, Radiohead is like also my,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, I'm loving all these like, 90s and early 2000s references.
This is my jam. Look. That's awesome. Amazing. What's your opinion on Korean fusion cuisine? Here for it, or No thank you?
Michelle Li: Uh, here for it. 100%. Anytime you can put like mayonnaise cheese, like, you know, the corn cheese has mayo on it and cheese. Oh my gosh. It's so good. Yes. Yes. Uh, so yes, I'm here for it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Awesome. Awesome. What are some common misconceptions about TV news journalists or in your favorite part about being a TV news journalist?
Michelle Li: Uh, that it's like a glamorous or fun job. . I mean, it can be. It can be. Yeah. You know, you put on eyelashes every morning, you have a recital when you do your live show.
But like, journalism's hard. Yeah. It's, it can be hard. Really hard. Mm-hmm. .
Vanessa Shiliwala: Who's your favorite Korean chef or restaurant?
Michelle Li: Ooh. Oh my gosh. Why would you ask me that? I don't even know. Um, you know, I've always been like a Roy Choi, like always you know, just with the Kogi truck many, many years ago, like I just became a big fan.
Yeah. Um, David Chang, of course. You know? Yes. I mean, um, but actually I should say, oh my gosh. Hello. There's a woman in St. Louis. Her name is Melanie Meyer. She is the Tiny Chef. Love her. Ooh. And then in Wisconsin, Wisconsin, uh, there's Tory Miller in Madison. He owns Graze and L'Etoile, and he's also a Korean adoptee and a James Beard Award winner.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Amazing.
I would say those two are my favorites. Amazing. The people I know. Yes. Love the local shoutouts. That's amazing. There is a food scene outside of New York City and West Coast.
Michelle Li: Yes.
Vanessa Shiliwala: If you can go back in time and talk to your inner child, what will you tell her?
Michelle Li: Mm. Okay. I mean, something as simple. It's gonna be okay, , you know, it's gonna be okay.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I love that. I love that. You're also a mom raising, like a mixed race child, as you were saying. How do you engage or immerse your partner in the culture, just out of curiosity, and what has your son taught you about what it means to be Asian American?
Michelle Li: Wow. Um, you know what? It's funny, my husband is just like here for it. Like, he loves it. We went to Korea together and that changed our lives, I think. Oh, yeah. We did that in the first year of our marriage and he got to see so much of Korea. Mm-hmm. my family. But then also my adoption too. Like, it was really powerful for him to go to like, my orphanage, you know, like,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my gosh.
Michelle Li: See all these things in my beginnings. So, you know, he's always been a huge supporter and feels a part of it, you know? Mm-hmm. I don't think Korean people necessarily feel like he's always a part of it, but he's like, No, I am. I'm here for it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Who cares? Like, who cares what they think?
Yeah.
Michelle Li: We go to a Korean restaurant, people don't talk to him, you know, and he's like, But I know, I know how, I know what this is. You know?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Here's what it's like to be me. Yeah. You have like, you know, 10 days where you've experienced that, and yeah. Right.
It's a taste.
Michelle Li: And, and then, you know, my son, oh my gosh, like the other day, he said, Mom, that kimchi stinks.
He said that to me. I go, Oh, buddy, we don't say that. You know, like, yeah, you can say like, Oh, that's a different smell. But I was like, But you know what? You like kimchi. I put it in your rice and you like it. He's like, That's right. You know? So, yeah. It's so funny because he's, you know, you have to teach him too, like, Right.
Oh my gosh. You know, Of course. Um, but he did, last night, we actually had Korean food. We ordered out and he said, Mom, these are Korean noodles. And I said, Yeah. And, um, even the, one of my sister's kids came over the summer and he was like, Mom, are we gonna see our Korean cousins again?
Like, everything's Korean. As the Korean, Yeah. .
Vanessa Shiliwala: Like, it's funny the way their brain divides at a really early age, cuz like my, um, two year old, she's almost three now. We just started them in Chinese school and like, there was a bus that passed us and had like Chinese characters on. She's like, Mom, that's a Chinese bus.
And I was like, Yeah, it is! I was like, that's awesome you know, that. And like, yeah. It's just really, it's really great. I personally find a lot of healing and being able to like find pride in that, and bestow and share that with my children because I didn't always feel like growing up having that pride in being Asian.
And so I love everything you're doing about it and with your foundation, I guess I would love to learn like what's next and you know, how has that experience been like for you?
Michelle Li: Oh gosh. I'm sure that like a lot of people still, you know, are learning about my story in terms of like how Very Asian happened, and um, you know, enough time has passed where people have like, Oh yeah, I do remember that, You know?
Yeah. But really for us, it has been nonstop since January. Like we, I think between Gia Vang and I, we, who's also the co-founder of the foundation mm-hmm. , we did like something like 60 DEI talks in May. Wow. You know, we're, I'm actually going to Seattle this weekend to do something Very Asian related. Mm-hmm.
We launched the May Book project, which is an Asian American youth literature project, basically for all readers. Mm-hmm. , uh, because we believe, you know that Yeah.
You should see yourself and learn about others. Yeah. And, and we did it in a really vetted, kind of like high quality book list because we used national scholars who are so much smarter than me, , and like anybody, you know. So really proud of the work that they did on it and we just are trying to really be a part of narrative change.
Mm. You know, we believe that if you can be a part of cultural change and you can get people to understand that the Asian American story is an American story.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. Hundred percent.
Michelle Li: Then, we could maybe, perhaps see people being supportive of Asian American curriculum as opposed to fighting diversity.
I will say this as a journalist, I'm a journalist for all, I always say that, you know, but like, the truth is, I have this lens because I'm an Asian woman. Yeah. But like, when it comes to finding the truth, I am always in seek of the truth. Yes. So the fact that like Asian Americans have contributed to American history, that we have things that have been 100% left out of history books.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh yeah.
Michelle Li: I feel like that is a truth seeking journey. Mm-hmm. , um, that we all could get behind All Americans. Right. let's talk about ways that everyone can see themselves in history, in American culture.
that's just one of the things that I really like working on with the foundation. Um, we try to approach everything from a journalistic perspective. Like even our mission is shining a light on Asian experiences through advocacy and celebration. Mm-hmm. shining a light is what journalists do.
You know, we shine a light on good and bad and we left it Asian experiences cuz we have a lot of like Asian Canadians, Asian Australians, you know, . Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also, um, you know, advocacy of course and celebration because that's when Very Asian went viral. It was all about celebrating who we are.
Yes. And you know, and because you have littles, because you have two and a four year old, I have a three year old who's about to turn four. Um, you cannot live in like, in trauma or grief all the time. Like your little kids will pull you out of it so fast.
Vanessa Shiliwala: They call me out on it. As soon as it's happening. Mommy, why are you sad?
Like, let's play happy songs. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be, you know, strong and resilient for your children. And that means kind of dealing with a lot of the injustices. I certainly relate to a lot of the mission and advocacy work you're doing, and of course, the celebration part because Asian joy also deserves a spotlight.
Yeah. Um, so I think a lot of the headlines have been around well, I don't know if sensationalizing is the right word, but personally for me, when I see a lot of like violence or, um, racism against Asians, I, I get triggered mm-hmm. . And so, you know, part of my mission has been also to kind of uplift and celebrate the moments of joy that we do experience in our
daily lives.
Michelle Li: Thank you for saying that, by the way, because it, it does feel very one-note to me. Mm-hmm. . And granted, we can't have joy without safety, so I'm not Yes. You know, I 100% believe that, but it's kind of like working in news. People will say, Oh, I don't watch the news cuz it's all bad news. Right. And there is a part of it that's like, if it bleeds, it ledes. Mm-hmm.
but you're missing out on so many issues. You know, the fact if you follow, Stop AAPI Hate, you know, they'll say most of the things that are reportable aren't really crimes, but they are very serious. So we need to look at things like language access. We need to look at other things to that will solve community problems.
And then on top of it, if you're living in Wisconsin or Missouri, it's not necessarily the same headlines that you're gonna see outta San Francisco or New York City. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I, I don't feel worried necessarily about my safety on a normal basis. I mean, I feel worried about my safety just because I'm a woman , you know?
Because I come into work at two o'clock in the morning. Yeah. But like, um, but you know, I'm more interested in other issues. You know, the fact that Wisconsin banned a book on Japanese internment, that is something that bothers me. Right. Um,
Vanessa Shiliwala: that's wrong.
Michelle Li: Yeah. And so, you know, those are things that I think in terms of cultural change and that narrative change, you have to get outside of the news cycle that we're used to so that you can actually make changes for the next generation.
Vanessa Shiliwala: You're so in alignment with your beliefs and I think that's so inspiring to a lot of people. because I think even before I started this podcast, I felt like I had a lot of these thoughts and feelings, but then I wasn't sure what I was doing about it.
Mm-hmm. . And I think that a lot of healing comes from that. So I'm sure that you are already inspiring a next generation,
Michelle Li: Oh, gosh.
Vanessa Shiliwala: As well as, you know, modeling that truth for your son and your family and modeling what does it mean to be Asian or Asian American, and being very unapologetic about it, even though I, you know, we spoke about this, it's not like we emerge feeling 150% confident in our definition of what it means every single day. But I think that's part of it, is that it is fluid and that's okay.
Michelle Li: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for all your work. Are you kidding? Like, I love listening to your podcast. I just love, you know, and I, I love the celebration of being Asian too.
You know? I love the celebration of being so many other things, you know? Yes. A mom and a wife and mm-hmm. , you know, even like, when I was living on the West Coast and loved it, I still like missed Midwestern sensibility in many ways. You know?
Like, I was like,
Vanessa Shiliwala: people are so nice. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely missed that, especially out here in New York. Like, it's not the same.
Michelle Li: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, we're gonna have to do an event, a Very Asian event with you in New York.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, I would love that.
Yes. Yes, please, please do. Keep in mind, um, well, thank you again. It was such a pleasure. I'm just so glad that we finally got a chance to sit down and chat and truly just very appreciative and in gratitude of the work that you're doing to inspire, engage, and uplift our community.
You do not have to make any apologies about how Asian or not Asian you are. You are enough. So thank you again, Michelle.
Michelle Li: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you.
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