Lillian So on Bossing Up as the CEO of Your Own Life
Season 1 Episode 13
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If you've ever felt the urge to escape your life and "Eat, Pray, Love" your way to a yoga ashram in India or Bali, please listen to this podcast episode instead - it will save you a lot of time, money and heartache. Lillian So, a life coach, fitness entrepreneur, and co-author of the new book FitCEO, gets personal and shares everything: her moment of panic after getting her most recent tattoos, reclaiming her energy and worth by leaving toxic and emotionally abusive relationships, and what she learned from starting her own business and writing her first book, FitCEO, in partnership with Rebecca Macieira-Kaufmann (the former CEO of Citigroup). We talk about why investing in ourselves is the hardest but most gratifying work, and why we need to deprogram the Model Minority Myth even within ourselves. Lastly, Lillian shares why asking for help - whether it's for work, your mental health or emotional and physical wellbeing - is the ultimate BOSS move in manifesting your best life.
Also - join us on Facebook Live on Wednesday 9/29 for a special livestream at 3 PM ET/12 PM PT with Lillian!
About Lillian So:
Lillian So is an integrator and facilitator of transformation. She has more than twenty years of industry experience in creating psychological safety, group facilitation, and compassionate communication. The founder of SOfit SF Inc. and the SO method, she is also a passionate community builder and entrepreneur.
Lillian has a BSc in Kinesiology from the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign and is a certified personal trainer, group fitness instructor, yoga educator and therapist, non-violent communication facilitator, life coach, integrative healer, and mystic. She has received over a dozen certifications in fitness and various mind-body modalities, and has studied Jungian psychology at the International School of Analytical Psychology Zurich.
Her coaching programs, which attract an international audience, have helped people transform every aspect of their lives through the five pillars of the SO method: biology, programming, inner compass, communication, and manifesting.
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Watch the full Thrive Spice podcast interview with Lillian So on YouTube
Real talk on mental health
Memorable quotes from Lillian’s interview, including how to create an abundance mindset, what she learned from navigating emotionally abusive and toxic relationships, and how to find happiness in the present, past and future.
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Full Interview Transcript
Vanessa: Our guest today at Thrive Spice is Lillian So, an integrator and facilitator of transformation and co-author of the book FitCEO. She has more than 28 years of industry experience in creating psychological safety group facilitation and compassionate communication. The founder of SOfit SF Inc., and the SO Method.
She is also a passionate community builder and entrepreneur. Lillian has a BSC in kinesiology from the University of Illinois, and is a certified personal trainer, group fitness instructor, yoga educator and therapist, non-violent communication facilitator, life coach, integrative, healer, and mystic.
She has received over a dozen certifications in fitness and various mind body modalities and has studied Jungian psychology at the international school of analytical psychology. Her coaching programs, which attracted an international audience, have helped people transform every aspect of their lives through the five pillars of the SO method: biology programming, inner compass communication, and manifesting.
Editor’s Note: Lillian and I are both Leos and recently celebrated our birthdays, so obviously we had to cover that very important coincidence first.
Lillian: What are you going to do [for your birthday]?
Vanessa: I'm actually getting a bunch of my girlfriends together for the first time in like literally years because of the pandemic and life and go out to dinner and you know, it was just like the simple things, like seeing people that. You haven't seen for a long time and having some fun with your girlfriends.
Especially as a mom you know, there's such a need to just get out there and not be with your kids for a little bit. Yeah. And get dressed up and not worry about your toddlers, spilling their milk all over you, you know, that kind of stuff. I was really looking forward to that. And then my actual birthday, I'm going to be trying stand up paddle boarding yoga for the first time.
Lillian: Oh, where would you do that up there?
Vanessa: Well, I live in Westchester, so, we're near the water. There's a place in Mamaroneck, which is on the Harbor of Long Island Sound. So yeah, I'm excited. Hopefully I don't fall in the water and yeah, just thought I'd try something a little bit new and crazy.
Lillian: I love that! You're such a Leo, I love that.
Vanessa: What did you do for your birthday?
Lillian: So I came out to New York and I went to go see Mr. K at bang bang tattoo. And I got my hands done.
Vanessa: Oooh, let's see!
Yes. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. That's gorgeous.
Lillian: Yeah. He did a great job.
Vanessa: All of them you got on that one day?
Lillian: yup. Yup.
Vanessa: Dang. Yeah.
Lillian: Yup. I was like, I came to New York because I wanted to get my hands done.
Vanessa: What's the meaning behind the tattoos that you got?
Lillian: Hand tattoos are like, kind of like a beast of its own because you use your hands all the time and it's not like a forearm or like
Vanessa: Yeah, you can't really hide it, like, "I'm just gonna wear gloves to the interview guys. Like, don't worry."
Lillian: Exactly, you gotta be really careful cause that shit could look trashy fast. Let's just be real, you know? I mean, even after I first got them done, I was like, oh my God, did I just ruin my life?
My like conservative, like Asian upbringing. I was like, oh my God, my parents are gonna fucking freak out ... I'm a total grown ass woman and I'm like, oh my God. What did I just do? But I'm so happy with it and it was like a very bold, like audacious move for me to do this.
I love that it's like very different than your traditional tattoo.
It has this very feminine dainty but artistic energy to it. But why go for the hands? I'm curious, what was the rationale behind that?
First of all, like your hands are, and I'm going to get a little woo woo with that and all that. But like your hands are the extension of your heart. So your heart energy, your heart chakra extends into your arms and then into your hands.
So, as a healer, you hear things like healing hands made with love, like by hand of God, like the medicinal touch. So I do consider myself as someone who's channeling and healing and doing this transformative work.
And even though I'm not necessarily putting my hands on people anymore in the way that I used to... I used to do body work and I used to work with my hands a lot and stuff. My hands is how I create.
Right. And even being online and how I write and everything, it's all coming out of here. Right. And I also think just as a Leo, it's just fuck it. If we're going to go all in, let's just be as bold and fucking flashy as
possible.
Vanessa: Yeah. It's like unapologetic. And I remember reading somewhere that rings or like any kind of a hand adornment- it's really for yourself because you're looking at your own hands all the time, like necklaces are maybe for other people that sort of thing, but rings are really for ourselves because we're looking at our hands a lot or we're doing things with our hands and I agree your hands are so dynamic and we probably don't have enough gratitude for them.
Lillian: Well, if I like really zoom out and get like super like deep and like personal, for me, it represents so much for me in terms of like going against the grain and doing something so bold and doing something that like is so against. What I was raised with . Like I was raised like I was being raised by Korean immigrant parents.
Right. And just being raised my whole life around, like all these stigmas and taboos around everything. Right. And growing up, I was always getting in trouble for expressing myself. Right. Like I got my ass whooped. The first time I took two bottles of Sun-In and a hairdryer bleached.
I mean, I look terrible. It was like orange. I mean, like I understand why my dad was like, what the hell did you just do, and like whooped my ass, but appearances and all of that is such a huge thing, you know, especially in an Asian household. And you have to look a certain way and what are people going to think of you?
You, you have to save face, you have to have a certain clean image and like tattoos. I mean, forget about it. Like tattoos were like, you know, it's just oh my God, what are you, a gangster? You know, what did you just come back from prison? It's associated with all these negative things.
And you're not smart or you're not successful. It's so much of that. But that's why, like, when I first got tattoos, I was like, oh my God, I just ruined my life because that's like something my dad would literally say if I got these, when I was like a teenager, my dad would have been like, you ruined your life.
Are you fucking kidding me? You know, who's going to hire you. Who's going to take you seriously. Who's going to marry you. Who's going to think you're a professional. Who's going to think you're legit, all these things. And I would be lying if I didn't say that, yes, that kind of influenced me for a while.
Like that definitely was a reason why I didn't get tattoos for the earlier part of my life. Because that was so ingrained into my head of like how we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to show up, like what's acceptable, et cetera, et cetera. So for me to Fucking get ink on my hands and that's it like, unless I wear gloves, like you ain't hiding this, a part of me.
It's such a huge statement of self love, first of all. And then self-trust, and this self-trust the statement of self-trust is saying nothing is going to determine my fate but me. nothing is going to determine my success, but me just because I'm, even if I was tatted up, you know, like head to toe, even if my whole hands are covered, like that doesn't change anything.
I'm still amazing at what I do. I am highly skilled. I have a huge heart. I'm fucking smart. Like I'm a creative powerhouse. Like I am a powerful, loving source of energy and wisdom and love and. Some fucking hand tats, aren't going to change that, whereas I feel like growing up, it was like, oh my God, the image, you have to have a certain look and dah, dah, dah, dah.
And it was like, there was all this taboo, growing up in this like very conservative Asian household. So for me I, I do think that it's also like a very bold move. I'm just expressing myself. Like that
doesn't take away from, anything that I'm doing and how much I am more or less deserving of a certain kind of seat at any kind of table. So
Vanessa: Ah! Love that. Clapping, snapping. I love it. Love it. I couldn't agree more and I love that you touched on self love and self trust because particularly as Asian-Americans particularly as women, it is such a tough choice to choose self love and self trust.
Lillian: Totally.
Vanessa: It's something that I even struggle with on a daily basis. As you mentioned before, the voice of your parents, or just the limiting beliefs we've had just echoing through our head or we even say them for those people who aren't even there with us, but that doubtful voice is there and it's so tempting to listen to it.
So I think that it's not uncommon for us as Asian-American women to kind of come into our own in terms of that self-love, and self-trust maybe a little bit later than the average person, because we've had to overcome a lot more just to get to that point. And I think that. It's funny because tattoos, I think when we were growing up for like literally so taboo and you're like, oh my God, someone has a tattoo.
And I think times are changing. I hope they are. And I also think that's a great conversation point to really you know, show people who you are and what you've been through. And absolutely it doesn't define you in any way in terms of you not being enough to be at any table. So I love that you shared that because that really resonated with me.
And I'm sure with a lot of other folks who, have had their own maybe rocky, maybe nonlinear path to self-actualization, self-love, self-trust. So I would love to like circle back a little bit and just kind of share with everyone. You have such an impressive background in physical fitness and you've had like 90 lives. Like I was reading your bio this morning, you know, you're a personal trainer or fitness instructor, yoga educator, therapist, life coach, healer, mystic. I was like, these are like 10 people. Like I want to learn about all of them, but I'm so impressed and I really want to share more about how you decided to transition into the more spiritual, emotional, and mental side of fitness after really focusing on the physical side. What inspired you to pursue that path in your journey and why?
Lillian: Yeah. I mean, I thank you for asking that question. And let me just start all over and just say, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Even when we met before this formal recording, you know, we just hit it off right away and it's just so easy to just jump right into the conversation with you.
It's so fun to be doing this with you today, so thank you for having me. So I started my career in fitness. And then what kind of was the impetus for change was, I had a lot of success in my career when I was living in Illinois, living in Chicago. And I came out to San Francisco in 2007 because, I hit what I thought were a lot of glass ceilings. I had a lot of success at a really early age and I was like, man, is this really it? I thought this was going to take a decade or two. And I kind of did it already. I'm like, barely in my mid twenties, like such an overachiever, which I never identified with, by the way, until like more recently over in the last few years, I actually never saw myself as that.
I was just always just feeling like I was in this kind of like race. And now looking back now, I see a lot of, it was just high functioning anxiety and I just didn't know it, you know. it was just the norm, you know, growing up under high pressure households and things like that.
So after coming out to San Francisco in 2007, I started all over and just busted my ass and worked my ass off and got everything. And I was up to speed. I would say two major things really happened for me that made me feel like I needed to start taking kind of like a left right turn or whatever you want to call it.
One, I was in a relationship where I felt like I could not describe it at that time, but now looking back. I realized that I was losing myself and I didn't know, and I didn't know how to put a name to it. I didn't know what it was, but I was just, I found myself becoming insecure, overthinking you know, becoming like very like anxious, about the relationship.
And I found myself just being kind of like, not my confident, grounded, self and I was like, what is going on with that? I was noticing that within myself about a year or so after I moved to San Francisco.
So one was how I was showing up in this relationship and feeling like I was losing myself and I could literally see myself like, I was like having this meta moment of oh my God. I'm really going above and beyond for this relationship, what is happening? I just felt like I was just constantly feeling like this need to like gain this person's approval and validation, which I just felt was odd.
And I would talk to my girlfriends about it all the time. And I thought that was odd too, because I'm like, why the fuck am I spending so much time talking about this like person and this relationship, like it's taken up so much real estate. Like what the hell? So that was happening. And then at the same time, I finally quote unquote got up to speed, whatever the hell that means financially and in my career here.
When I first moved out here, I started from scratch. So I had to build everything back up and in about a year I promised myself, I was like, all right, I'm going to open up a credit card. Cause I was starting all over. No new jobs. No. Starting the whole business from scratch, building everything on my clientele, the whole thing.
And so once I reached that level of what I felt was a good place and making money again and whatever, I was like, okay, great, awesome. I'm caught up now. What am I going to do? What am I going to do now with that money? I was like, maybe I should, you know, get a new car.
Like maybe I should go on a trip. Like maybe I should get myself some fancy clothes. And I was literally thinking what am I going to do now? Now that I'm financially stable and legitimately had this train of thought. And because of the relationship, I think that subconsciously triggered it for me as well.
I had this thought and I shit, you not, I was like, I feel like I have daddy issues. I think it might be time. I think it might be time. I think it might be time. I do something about this. I'm pretty sure I have daddy issues. Like I should get a therapist. Just fucking outta nowhere. It just came to my mind and my intuition told me that was what I needed to do.
And I think it was because I was in this relationship too. I was starting to notice some patterns and it just kind of made sense for me. So really started with my own personal journey of helping myself to try to understand myself more deeply. Once I reached that certain point in my career where I felt like I was stable and I had a good foundation, it was kind of like, okay, well what's next now?
And so for me, what's next was it felt right for me to now rebuild myself, find myself or restrengthen myself or whatever with myself, because these other external things were now like set in place. And I say that with air quotes, right? Going down going through that process, I started, you know, going to see an acupuncturist.
I mean, I had been doing acupuncture, you know, since I was young, like 18. But I got an acupuncturist and I started doing therapy and acupuncture at the same time. Cause again, my intuition just told me that getting like some kind of alternative medicine healing kind of work done at the same time as me doing processing and talking in therapy. I was doing therapy for the first time ever in my life.
Something told me inside that that was going to go well together. So it was just like this intuitive thing. It just made sense for me. And then I started making some progress. Then somewhere in between that process of doing acupuncture and therapy, at the same time I had this moment, this light bulb where I was like, you know, I feel like I've done so much with fitness.
I have so many certifications. I've created my own programs. I've done so many things. I feel like I want to like deepen my yoga understanding and deepen my yoga studies. And so I enrolled myself in yoga school and then that was it. That changed everything. Like everything started to click, like my understanding of how everything works together, the mind, body connection, the emotions, the minds, the mind, the whole thing, because I specifically went to study yoga in a very traditional eight limbs, like the philosophy, not so much focusing on like the movements and the anatomy.
Cause I already knew that stuff right from, cause I have like my degree in exercise, it was like, I already know that. So I didn't need to go to yoga school to learn how to do the poses. I wanted to understand the deeper meaning behind everything. And it was so much more, so much deeper than I even thought it was.
And it just blew my freaking mind and it just helped me understand how everything is connected, the thoughts and the mind and the body and how it's like this metaphor. And we're just like this walking vessel of like energy and spirit and thoughts and emotions. And it just all made sense for me. And that was it.
That was the beginning of the rest of my trajectory of trying to awaken more and more of my consciousness and connect to something bigger than me. That's what took me down to becoming a yoga therapist and starting to study nonviolent communication and getting into all the spiritual stuff and the woo and all of that.
Then somewhere in that journey, I also broke up with that guy as well. I woke up, I was like, oh shit what am I doing? I completely lost myself. I like went into the darkness and the shadows and didn't even realize it.
And then it's like going through this process of awakening to myself, I started like realizing how much I had just lost myself. And so yeah, I just started waking up. That's how I see it all. Yeah. Wow. So that's the inspiration, I guess
it's incredible, like so many twists and turns in that journey.
But I think what really stood out to me is, it seems like we kind of ascribed to this checklist kind of mentality or you know, as soon as I get this done or I've become this, or, I'm financially secure, that sort of thing it's all gonna fall into place and it seems like you got there, like in your mid twenties and you're just like, wait, I'm still not feeling the way that I thought I should be feeling.
And I think that combining kind of this Eastern and Western approach with therapy, which is arguably more normalized in Western culture and then acupuncture, my dad's a TCM doctor. So he's all about that. Yeah. And like, when you were telling me about your tattoos, I was thinking about all the hand meridians of energy too.
And I was like, that's actually like a real hotspot for a whole body. Yeah. Like literally your whole body is in your hands. So I was like, makes sense to me. So yeah, like I totally get that combination. It's also part of what makes it tougher for us in our journey of finding wholeness, because we do kind of have to cobble together this Western and Eastern philosophy to really.
Address all those parts of ourselves that we're trying to heal. And I think that's really incredible that you were able to experience so many different kinds of healing. Like I feel like that would be a dream for most of us, right. To be able to really prioritize and make the time for therapy and acupuncture and yoga, and also just time for reflection.
And I'm curious, you have had this personal experience leaving an emotionally abusive and toxic relationship. Can you describe that process of how were you able to identify that you were in this toxic relationship, and what gave you the strength to leave?
Yeah. So when I'm talking about the relationship that I was in, you know, when I started going to acupuncture and stuff, that was like a, a second one that I was in. Right. So I was in a a way more toxic, like outwardly toxic, you know, like just like drama, you know, like cheating and yelling and fighting and getting back together and breaking up,
I mean, I was like, super early twenties like 21 hot mess, Lillian, you know? But but, and so that was like, I was like, whoa, that was like, I knew it was fucked up and dysfunctional when I was in that, you know, but I couldn't get out. Right. Like I was in my youth dramatic, whatever. But then with this one, like outwardly, like it didn't look like it's like, there was no like fighting.
There was no like drama in that sense. It was very silent. Hmm. It was very, very silent, but I just found myself like losing my worth and losing. And I, it was like this internal decaying. I don't know how else to describe it.
Like I felt like I was becoming pathetic.
Vanessa: Hmm.
Lillian: I witnessed myself being like, oh my God, I feel embarrassed of my own self. Something is happening inside of me where I feel a sense of shame. And that feeling inside of me was the shame of knowing that I was like giving away my power, that I was not walking the talk and like this confident woman that I'm supposed to be in the world, you know, helping people transform themselves.
I started to feel that. And I started to try to speak up for myself and advocate for myself in this relationship. And I never really felt like I was heard. I never felt seen, but again, it was like in this like subtle way, right. It wasn't like, she was like this outward asshole to me.
And this is what I think is really tricky about these kinds of situations. I think a lot of people are in these kinds of relationships where it's you know, pretty toxic and it's not healthy, but because it's not like this dramatic, made for lifetime movie kind of scenario, like you don't think that it's bad, but you're like losing yourself. you are losing your self-love, your self-trust. It's literally sucking the life out of you. Like it's toxic in that way. It's sucking you out, you know, you're losing. Yeah. And so, yeah. And so that was, I would say that was like my first indication and then going to therapy.
I started talking about it and I found myself talking about this relationship all the time in these sessions , to the point where I was like, what the fuck, why am I spending $150 a session to talk about this motherfucker every time? What the fuck is going on? This is not right. I don't think this is normal.
These were the thoughts that I had. I was like, I don't think this is normal. I don't think this is right, but of course you know, a therapist isn't going to tell you exactly what to do per se. So she just let me talk about it and let me process, but then after enough rounds, she started getting just a little bit more real with me, a little bit more honest with me.
I remember during our therapy session, she said to me, in one session, I think we were, I think it was like I wanted to get out, but I was in this vicious cycle. Right. Which is like what a trauma bond is, which is like an abusive relationship.
And you're like, things are good and then there's an explosion and then it's fucked up and then it's good again. And you're just in this like circle, right. This abusive cycle. And I remember I was going through one of these like cycles and I went to my therapy session and I was like, okay, it's happening again.
I wanted to get out, and now this bad thing happened. I don't know if I should try to work this out or if I should try to leave. And I remember she said to me something along the lines of, I mean, if you want to try it again and you want to give it another shot okay that's fine.
I'll do it with you. I'll help you through it. I'll work with you. I'll stay by your side while you do this. Is that what you want? And I felt like the fact that she asked it to me in that way, it made me realize oh, I'm stuck in a cycle right now. I'm on a hamster wheel.
Like I'm officially on a hamster wheel right now. This is not going anywhere. So that was one thing that really stood out to me. The second thing that stood out to me and this is so funny, I feel like every high achieving career-driven overachiever can relate to this one. She said, I joke about this now because I'm like, why didn't you just say this from the beginning, this would have changed everything.
It would have saved me months of therapy. I probably would have broken up with him like way sooner. She said to me, Lillian, just imagine if you put all of this energy that you're putting into this relationship right now, I think I was like 25 at the time or something like that.
This is young, right? She's imagine if you took all of this energy right now that you're putting into this relationship into your career. She said, what do you think you could do with your career? And I was like, I don't know why, but energy speak has always clicked for me.
It never got taught to me formally. I just understand it, like my body just gets it. I just get energy. I don't know how, and I don't know how to explain it. I think that's part of what makes me like this very intuitive too. And so when she said it in that way, everything clicked for me.
I was like, that makes so much sense to me. And I literally imagined like this mountain of energy, it was so big. It was, it was a lot like the amount was a lot, this energy that she spoke of, it felt like this mountain of energy. And then I imagined like literally transferring it from this guy to
my career, my growth, my bank account, my success, my potential. And I was like, holy fucking shit. I am tripping right now. I am holding myself back and I'm not saying that, like I broke up with him like that day, but that was like, I will never forget that moment.
From there it was just a matter of me finally untangling and getting out. And then finally, one day shortly after that we had another, like random TIFF, like nitpick me. It was like the subtle nitpick over like something that I did while I was driving.
But it was this way that he would always do it where I'd just feel like terrible. It was just this very subtle, disapproving, like distained energy. It was this very condescending energy that I got from this person.
Which makes sense. No wonder. I started to feel like shit about myself. There was something about the energy in that relationship that was condescending and toxic for me. And so finally that was it that night. I was like, I can't, I'm done. I have to end this. I can not do this anymore.
And I mean, he was hella thrown off guard. He was like, what? We'd just got back from watching a movie. It was just like a normal ass day. And I was like, yeah, yeah, this is it. I gotta go this has to end right now. It was like clear as day.
I was like, oh my God, I gotta get out right now. And that was it. I like, literally went to my bedroom, took all his clothes out of my, I was like, you gotta go, you gotta go. And then he like left and that was it. Over the next week I like gathered the rest of his stuff, wrote him a letter, told him I do not want to speak for six weeks minimum.
That's what my therapist also told me to do. She was like, she, she advised me to do that so that I don't get caught like back in the loop and relapse, you know? And that's actually what I advise my clients now too, is yo, like you need a sober period, you know, clarity period. And so yeah. Wrote him a note said, thank you for everything. Super cordial, six weeks, please no contact, left the note on his door, left a bag there. That was it. And wow. Yeah. And I just felt my power come back to me like crazy after that relationship for the next year after that, my entire world changed.
Like I started losing weight. And it wasn't like, it's not that I was like ever overweight. I started losing weight, like all the puffiness and the inflammation and the sadness, all the sadness, all the emotional baggage weight. It just drained out of me. Like literally drained out of me.
People would be like, oh, you look like you've lost weight. I'm like I'm just happy.
Yeah, just drained out of me and like, I was finishing up yoga therapy school. I was coming into my healer powers. I was starting to integrate everything and yeah, it was like in my Saturn return . And that's when I created my company SoFit.
SoFit SF was after that. Yeah. That's crazy. That energy got literally channeled into accessing my own potential.
Vanessa: I mean, you really manifested that mountain. Like you made the space for the change and even changes you weren't expecting, came about that's so incredible. And I think I wanted to learn more about your experience there, because I think we're seeing a lot of conversations crop up now about toxic relationships, not just romantically, but you know, friends, workplaces, bosses. It can be hard to escape toxic people.
And sometimes people feel like they have to stay, they have to stay in this job or they have to keep these people in their lives. What would you say to people who feel that they can't leave or they're stuck?
Lillian: You've got to leave because here's the thing. Like you just said, this is becoming more and more of a thing, toxicity, and that makes sense. Because something that I talk about with my clients all the time right now, cause you know, I have a whole community, right? I mean, I do work with people one-on-one but everything is done within my containers and I have a whole community.
It's an ecosystem because you need that because people don't do the work. Most people are not doing the work. Maybe half of my clients have one other friend or one other person in their life that's like doing the work in some way, shape or form.
And by doing the work I'm talking about doing the inner work, working to heal yourself, learning how to take radical responsibility, learning how to stop being in drama, trauma triangles with other people blaming and shaming and like trying to become the best version of themselves. Like for real, like that is not the norm people aren't doing that.
Right. So of course, everywhere you go, the majority of people are just playing out their narratives and they're coming from scarcity mindset and their fears and their old programming and their like dysfunctional ways of viewing the world. Like all the default stuff.
You're going to default to going into your narratives and your stories and whatever that is. That's why this toxicity is becoming more and more apparent and so many more people are more and more stuck in these toxic situations because that's like the majority in general.
So it's normalized. Even my dad would say this, like when I first quit my first real, real job, I was like literally 22, 23. And I've never looked back ever since. Even when I quit that job, my dad was like, why would you do that? And I was like, I was miserable. Like my boss was toxic. And he was like, what? He was like, you kidding me? You know, basically News flash, like welcome to the real world. That's just how it is. Right. That's just what it is. Like what do you mean, you didn't like your boss?
Vanessa: Right. The luxuries of the millennial generation.
Lillian: Exactly and like, "fucking suck it up. Yeah. Okay. You're being a spoiled little brat right now." Right. You know? So that's the norm, you know, so many of my clients come to me in this exact situation where they feel like they can't get out, or they don't even realize that they're, they kind of know they want to get out, but they can't get out because they feel loyalty or they're stuck in a trauma bond with their manager or their boss or the coworkers.
And they don't really realize that that's what it is. Or even if they do have the awareness, they don't know how to get out because it's so normalized and the pressure, the pressure to stay is so great.
Vanessa: Yes. Yes. And I really relate to that because I think a lot of the messages that we tell ourselves in terms of the narratives that you're so lucky to even be in this position because of what our parents went through.
Particularly if you're a child of immigrants because of, you know, how hard you've worked to get there. I mean, I remember the very first therapist I saw. Like most of my sessions were about my boss and it took me like 10 sessions and I'm like, oh yeah. Why am I coming here to talk about my boss all the time?
I mean, it's been helpful. I now understand why she thrives on craziness and a lack of structure. But it's not really the self work that I want to be doing as you were saying before. And I think what's really just of note, is that yeah, it's becoming the norm that this autopilot mode of just dealing with toxicity, particularly in these high achieving environments where, you know, you're considered just lucky to have a seat at the table.
It's just considered par for the course. And I think it's been, and it's part of the model minority myth too. I feel like.
Lillian: Oh, 100%. We hustle. We grind. We're good for it. We'll always get the job done no matter what, even if it takes 12 hours and like it's always going to be pristine.
It's always going to be perfect. We'll get it done fast. Yep. Absolutely.
Vanessa: Yeah, totally. And then we just tell ourselves yeah. You know, I'm just lucky to have this opportunity and yeah, it's tough to talk to our parents' generation about it because you know, looking at the Maslow's hierarchy of needs triangle, like self-actualization is just such a absurd luxury.
Like they're just like get a stable paying job, have a family, have kids have a roof over your head. You're done. That's it. So it's, and it's something that I think is changing, but for so many folks it's just been like, you know, We feel guilty about even questioning these parts of our lives that are toxic.
And we shouldn't like, as you were telling us about your health, like it's actually linked to very basic needs of safety and health and feeling like you are in a safe environment where you can be yourself. So I would argue it's not the top of the triangle. It is the foundation.
Lillian: It is the foundation.
Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think people really need to just give themselves permission to examine that. And to your point, like this work is hard. It's like working out, no one wants to do it. It's not fun. It's not fun going to therapy. Sometimes it's not fun, you know, going to therapy and crying and looking at your problems or your daddy issues or whatever it is and being like, oh my God, like I'm stuck in this cycle.
That's not fun, but it is important. And just like muscles get sore. You know, you can feel sore too, and you might not feel good after therapy, but you know, maybe a couple of days, weeks, months later, you're like, oh, that was so great. I'm really glad that happened. So, yeah, I think mental health is just as much of an undertaking as physical fitness.
And I'm so happy that you really saw that and started really going after it in a real way on your own. And then, passed the torch on and created this legacy to help others. I really want to circle back to you know, you were mentioning you're kind of this overachiever, and I know that a lot of us within this community have felt the pressure to do that.
Never feeling like we're enough. And just having this like high achiever, normalized mindset and narrative for our community. And it's this addiction, right? It's this mindset of I'll be happy when, or my parents will be happy when, or my family will be proud of me when fill in the blank, whatever something happens for them.
Right. So what are your thoughts on that? How can we be more mindful while also going after our own dreams and goals?
Lillian: Yeah, I love this question because I talk about duality a lot, right. With my clients. And I do feel like really understanding that balancing that is the key to happiness. Right?
You can always want more and extend strive for more. And want to have, more success in your life, more money, lose more weight, you know, you can always want those things. But also at the same time, if we're constantly chasing and we're constantly striving, then it also pulls us away from the present moment.
And the present moment is really where we find our fulfillment and we find our joy and our happiness. And so to me, it really is about balancing the two, right. Learn how to be, learn how to be super happy right now, learn how to be extremely grateful right now, learn how to trust and know that you are exactly where you are supposed to be right now.
That is a muscle you have to build by the way. You hear these things all the time, like just be present. Okay. What the fuck does that mean? Right. Oh, you just gotta be happy now you just gotta be grateful that. You're just like, what does that even mean?
It doesn't really mean anything because it's actually a practice. it doesn't mean anything until you actually put it into action. So you actually have to literally show up and practice that and built, like you said, just like a workout, right? This is why I do what I do because I see everything as fitness.
Like one of my earliest taglines, when I first started my company back in 2011 was you are just as physically fit as you are mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Right? So in that same way, like you have to build all those muscles up, just like we do reps. We do 50 pushups a day. We also got to do gratitude every day.
We got to notice our thoughts and redirect them constantly. We have to constantly like, stop ourselves in our tracks and say no, when we maybe would normally say yes by default, we actually have to like, take that lunch break when we said we were going to rather than, rather than overriding it again, just because we feel the pressure of our boss.
Those are practices of being happy NOW, that nobody actually really talks about in a practical day-to-day day-to-day way. Right? So, so that is like learning how to be happy now. That is actually a muscle that you have to build in this moment. So you actually have to practice being grateful for everything right now, knowing that you have everything that you need. One of the mantras or affirmations that I used to anchor to a lot when I first started really doing this inner work for myself was "Everything is exactly the way it needs to be right now. Everything is perfectly in time. I trust that. " I said that to myself over and over and over and over again to the point where now that is really my reality. And I also want to say, I'm also super fucking impatient.
Like I'm Korean, I'm a Leo, just like you I'm an Aries rising. Like I want to get yesterday. Like I am impatient, an impatient-ass bitch. But like at the same time, knowing that, I can honor both sides of myself. I know that I'm impatient. And I know that that's something that I'm always going to struggle with.
And I'm always going to be feeling oh, I want it faster. I want something I want to be there now. I want to be there now, whatever that means. Be there now. Right. And I know that that's always going to be one of my demons or one of my shadows. And now, because I know that about myself, that's why I'm always constantly counterbalancing that with like Lil'- yes, don't worry.
Everything that you want is happening. It's happening right now as we speak. And so something that I always say to my clients is we have to learn how to be present in this moment right now. Otherwise we're going to lose, we're going to miss out on the magic that's happening right in front of us right now, because we think that it's going to happen later, but we think that it hasn't arrived yet or it's going to happen when you get that thing.
And that's why we're never happy because we're constantly chasing that next thing that we think is going to make us happy. So we have to just be present now, right. And, and learn how to be so enamored and in love with every day that you get up to do whatever it is that you're doing, knowing that you're constantly in motion towards a better version of yourself.
Yeah. So that's one. And the other thing that I always say is your future self is your present self, right? So, everything that I'm doing literally today right now is already rippling into my future self. For example, like me making sure that I eat well, get eight hours of sleep now is building me for a better tomorrow.
Right. And the day after that, and the day after that and the day after that. So if I'm constantly thinking like, when I'm like an eight figure business owner, like I'm going to be so ecstatic, you know, et cetera. Yeah, that's going to be tight. Like when I get to throw everybody on a yacht and just do that one time, just because I can like yeah, that's going to be tight.
But I already know, like in my heart, I already know that's going to happen. And when that happens, that'll be dope. And also at the same time, I fucking love my life right now, too. Yes. I love my life, you know, today as the person who was able to fly first class to New York to go get hand tats.
And I was so happy and in love with the person that I was five years ago when I went to New York the last time, five, six years ago, We went on a red-eye in coach and stayed in an Airbnb with my friend to reduce the cost because hotels are expensive in New York.
And just enjoy like just bumming around the village or whatever, you know. Yes, I am constantly becoming a better quote, unquote, better version of myself or more rich and more abundant, more fancy version of all those things. But I thought like my 2015 self was fucking hot.
Like she was hot shit then, you know, like I'm a hot shit now. And I know I'll be hot shit when whatever you know, like I throw that yacht party for no reason, just...
Vanessa: yes! please invite me. I'll be there. I love that. Oh, I think you touched on so many great topics and what stood out to me is that you've really created this law for yourself of create your own abundance right now. And you are abundant and you have everything you need right now. And then also embracing that duality where yes, we can have goals and yes, we can try to want things for ourselves, but then there's also this aspect of surrender and of active gratitude. You're right,
We hear this being thrown around so often we're almost like numb to it. We don't really, we're like, yeah, I'm grateful for everything I have. But you know, for me personally, I've recently started journaling more often and just like writing it down or like writing down my anxieties or fears.
And then I'll write down a statement like, okay. I'm a bad mom. And then on the other side, I'm like, well, actually I provide for my children. I cook for them. I do their laundry every week. They love me, even though sometimes they scream at me and you know, both can be true, right?
It's not necessarily that I'm a bad mom, but oh, sometimes I need a break from my kids and sometimes I want to spend time with them. So it's just having that duality and not judging ourselves for either side. Right. Because we're human. And that duality is part of what makes humanity so interesting.
Lillian: Yeah. And the more that we accept all of our sides, like that is how we liberate ourselves. That is how we feel fulfilled and free because you're just like, I love all of me. I love all of me when I'm fucking crushing it and killing it and like hitting promotions and like 10 pounds lighter, you know, when I'm in, like my emotional, sad girl, winter phase, you know, I love, I love me even then, when I'm like, Aw man I'm just like, not really at my best right now, but it's okay, girl, I love you.
We're going to get this shit tight. Like April, we're going to be a different body. Like I got you, I'm taking care of you, we're going to do this. And when you can always stay in that state it sounds corny, it sounds cliche, but that is how you feel happy, fulfilled at every moment, no matter how you look, no matter what you have, no matter what you're going through. Like even when you know shit goes sideways, you have an unexpected death in your family, or an accident happens that you didn't expect, or you lose your job or whatever. It's just man, that fucking sucks.
But it's cool. Like I got you baby girl let's do this. You know, like shit sucks right now. But damn six months from now, it will be a whole new world. So you know, we're gonna have to do some grinding. You're going to have to, we're gonna have to do some schmoozing.
We're gonna have to do some shit. We're gonna have to reach out to some people and do some networking and you know, but we'll get through this and it's going to be fine. I think that's where we can constantly stay present and happy while still knowing that there's a better other side, you know, grass is always greener.
Vanessa: Oh of course. And I think our society really doesn't help when it comes to that. We're always just focused on what everyone else has or they always seem like they're having a better time or something. you know, I want to Take some time to learn more about your own personal method, the SO method, and the five pillars. Is that an approach that you're still using today with your clients?
And I also want to talk about your new book. Is that something that you also explore in the book, would love to hear more about that?
Lillian: Yeah. Yeah. So you said something earlier, when I was talking about me spending all this time, going to therapy and doing all this healing work and whatever, and you said something like that, like how like lucky and specialists that, that you got to do that.
And I'm like, exactly, who can do that? There was literally a point during that like phase of mine where I was like, just in sponge mode and like getting all the help I could put, I spent thousands of dollars a month, like seeing an acupuncturist, seeing a therapist, like having a yoga therapist, starting to get mentorship.
And this one, I was spending thousands on body work, getting bodywork. Seeing light workers, like getting astrology readings. Who can do that? That's not like that was like my life path. Like I dedicated my life and learning and career my personal and professional path to that. But like the average person that's going to work, raising their kids.
Like they don't have that kind of time, luxury to do that. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to bring all these things together because we all need all of these things. We're such holistic complex beings that the shortcut, the way to actually get into that health, happiness liberation is to do all of this work at the same time.
But like, but who can do that? Right. Who can see a personal trainer and a therapist and a healer and and get coaching and get a little woo-woo insights, like- who can get that at the same time? So that's really where I started to develop the SO method because I was like, I have to find a way to deliver all this information, put this in a process where it's simplified enough, where it's not going to take years like it did for me to put everything together and get my clients the same kind of results that I know I can get them. It took many, many years of refining to the point where I realized, these are the pillars. This is what it is. In order for us to ascend to the best version of ourselves, to reach our full potential, we have to take care of everything. And I know that sounds overwhelming, but it doesn't have to be because that's why I created this SO method. So the five pillars are first biology, right? So I started my career in fitness. I'm a physiology nerd. We are a physical biological being, right? We literally wake up every morning.
We have to eat, we have to like, we have to use the bathroom. Like we have to get sleep. Like we, without our health, we have nothing. We're literally, you're either living or you're fucking dying. Right. So that's it, it's you're a biological, human being.
So first biology pillar. So I, so first and foremost, that's the foundation. When you work with me, like week, we have to address we've got to get you in your body. You gotta drink water. You gotta learn how to eat. Right. You've got to learn how to take care of yourself at the most basic level. And that's us, the foundation.
And then the second pillar is your programming. This is the emotional programming, the mental programming. This is the things that you've learned, the way that you think you're processing your program. This is all the ways that we have been taught since we were little kids, the way that we think.
Right? So a lot of us, for me, as a child of immigrants, I told him, we have a certain kind of mindset. We have a certain kind of programming. We've been conditioned to think a certain way, believe a certain way. That's all programming. So while in many ways, of course, there's a lot of things that our parents have taught us that have helped us so much.
It's the reason why we are the way that we are for better and worse. And so we have to address the programming pillar because that allows us now to unlearn the things that do not serve us and then relearn the things that are going to serve us. And then keeping the things that we really love and honoring that make us us and owning that.
So that is all handled in the second pillar programming. The third pillar is inner compass. That inner compass is trusting yourself. Self love, self trust, knowing that you've got yourself trusting your intuition, right? Like it's like your true north. It's like the thing that's guiding you against.
For me personally, child of immigrant parents, we were told what to do. Society tells us what to do. Our parents tell us what to do. All these expectations, so much pressure, you know, as I'm the first born, I'm a daughter, like there's all these expectations, gender, gender norms, age norms, cultural norms, all.
And so it's you don't know, like sometimes like for me, I was like, oh, I felt like I should have. I felt for the longest time I grappled with whether or not I should have children or not, because I felt bad for my mom. So like for me, it was like, oh my God, am I really about to have kids? Because I feel bad for my mom.
That's not a good reason to have kids. I'm like, I'm like, whoa, like that's so that to me is like inner compass. It's are you really being led by your own inner compass? Or are you. How many of us are like what do you think? What should I do? What should I do? And they don't trust themselves.
People don't trust themselves. Right. Then you have a toxic boss you're in a toxic relationship. Forget about it. Your inner compass is fucked, right? Like you're, you don't know which way is up. You don't know what you want. You don't know where you should be going. That's why people feel lost. So that's the interactive.
So biology programming, inner compass, the fourth pillar is communication. And I can not stress how fricking important this is the main reason why so many of my clients have struggle is because they don't speak up. They don't know how to set boundaries. They don't know how to have hard conversations.
They get ghosted by people, because they don't know how to just simply say, Hey, I'm not really sure if we're a good fit for each other. I'd love to be your friend. People don't even have that fucking basic wherewithal of how to communicate and how to be like a compassionate listener and communicator.
And so we're all out here just hurting each other, fucking everything up, just not being able to set boundaries, not actually speaking our truth, we're all lying to each other. We don't even realize it. It's very damaging. So communication to me has to be its own pillar. And I teach my clients how to learn, how to lead with love, learn how to do empathetic, listening, compassionate speaking, and learning how to actually make requests without bringing your narratives without bringing your own stories without projecting your own shit and coming from a place of truth- which again comes, once you dial in your programming and your inner compass- now you can speak truthfully, right?
Because your inner compass is dialed in and you're not saying whatever you think they want you to hear, but you're now communicating what, you want to truly express. Which comes from dialing in your inner compass, having the tools to communicate. And then last but not least, the fifth pillar is manifesting. And to me, what that means is. You are the co-creator of your life. You really are. I am. I am living, walking proof of that. If I did not believe that I would just be defaulting listening to my parents, listen to society, not letting myself express myself, staying miserable in a job, staying miserable in a relationship because, because I should do the safe thing. But what I've learned through all my study, through all my experience through my own life is that life is literally your own design.
And you are capable of consciously co-creating. This is about recognizing that you are a powerful, spiritual magical being that is connected to the consciousness of this universe and the energetic, abundant forces that are available to all of us.
By tapping into that, you really can access your greatest potential and create the life that you've always imagined. If you can see it, if you can visualize it, like it is possible for you in some way, shape or form. And so that is the fifth pillar. And so these are all the things that I have learned implemented, use from my own transformation and healing that I use for my own clients, that I've now distilled down so it's simplified, it's done in a process and new clients can come in and now start with a 16 week process. It's called the breakthrough. I don't like calling it a program. I don't like calling it a course. Cause it's so much more than that. It really is a journey.
It's a process that I take you through, where I teach you how to now build these five pillars so that you can take care of your whole self so that you can take care of your whole life. So that is the SO method, the SO method is this holistic, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, like community communication.
It's literally all encompassing and we don't leave any stone unturned because that's what you need to live a whole, we all say fulfilling life. I want a whole life. I want a fulfilling life. Everyone else says that. But they don't know how to get there. No one teaches you how to get there practically.
So for me, it's like I want a practical fucking manual on how to actually fill my whole life up with as much love and abundance as everyone says, All these spiritual teachers say is available to me. Well, how do I actually do that without just believing it? How do I actually make that happen?
Because I'm ready to work. I got hands, give me tools. I'm ready. I like to sweat, I'm down to work. Let's fucking go. That is what the So Method that is. Taking all those concepts ,it's taking all those truths. It's taking all that philosophy and wisdom and now putting it into action and making it real.
Vanessa: Yes. Oh, I love that. I totally I'm just floored by how thorough that method is. And I feel like it really touches on so much of the self work that you mentioned earlier that no one wants to do because it is really hard.
Lillian: And that's the thing it is really hard, but that's why it's so important. Half of my secret sauce is also the community, because doing this work is hard. It can be very isolating when you start to grow, you start to feel the gap of growth - it's something that I talk about with my clients. You start to feel the gap of growth. You're growing, you're becoming awake and you start to see all these people around you that are unwell, right?
And so you need community, you need that support system and, and it just expedites your growth because you realize that you're not alone. And it's been 20 years in the making, so it's definitely was not an overnight process, a lot of trial and
error.
Vanessa: Yeah. And and I love that you were able to share all these experiences you had and while yes, it's a privilege. I want to clarify like I didn't say it to be like, oh, lucky you like, you're some like snob or something. That's not what I meant. I just want to clarify that. I'm just like, wow.
Lillian: I appreciated that. No, actually, no, I appreciated that. You said that because I'm like, no, that's my whole point. That's why I created this because you're right. It's not like who can do that? That's not normal, like people got shit to do. Like people are working like luckily for me, me doing those things was in alignment with my studies, was in alignment with my professional work.
Like what a blessing that my life's path was meant to intertwine my personal and professional work. I appreciated that you picked up on that and that you said that because I do think that's how I am now able to like, deliver this as a gift and into a simplified system and method because nobody got time for that. Who can you get that? No one would do that. As a matter of fact, this is why so many people get to the point where they're so fucking burned out, that they're just like, oh my God, I just quit everything, I gotta go to an ashram. I got to go to Thailand. I got to go to India for a month or three. I gotta just quit everything and just have a sabbatical. Because how else are you going to find the space and the where with all to do that?
I'll say to my clients, or we do it on zoom. I'll be like, put a one in the chat, if you've thought about quitting your job and just going to India for a month or Bali for a month., everyone was like, it's everybody's like been there, been there. And then like half of the people will be like, I already did.
I did that. And it still didn't do nothing, because it's not going to be fixed.
Vanessa: We can't Eat, Pray, Love out of this! Like you got to put in the work, you know, and I think that's so fitting because yeah, you can't drive yourself to the point where you literally break down and burn out because trust me, I've been there and it's been a wake up call to my body and my mind it's okay, you need to start really doing the work and really setting boundaries.
And I think particularly as women, we really struggle to set boundaries, particularly as Asians. Like we just want to say yes to everybody. Otherwise we're going to be that bad daughter that, oh bad lady.
Lillian: It's just, our culture. That's what makes you a good person is that you're so self-sacrificing.
Vanessa: Yeah. And as you get older and you start taking care of more people, whether you're a mother or not, The pressure is still there. And I think setting the boundaries is so important. I think that when people see that you respect yourself enough to set up boundaries, they start respecting you more.
And that's something I wish I could have told my younger self because I let people just tell me what to do and just let myself be that person working until nine or 10 o'clock at night. And yeah, I just thought, okay, I'm just going to keep my head down and earn my way up to the top of the corporate ladder.
And that's not how it works and it's definitely a short path into burnout. So, then you're just left with your feelings of resentment and exhaustion to put the pieces back together. So I love that your method is just more like day-to-day, proactive, get there before you burn out and crash, because if you don't pick a day to do it, your body will tell you when.
And even then, just running away, isn't necessarily going to facilitate that deep inner work. So I think that's just wonderful that you've really integrated it into your community and that you also empower them to pick up on the warning signs. Hey, you daydream about quitting your job or running away to Bali or yeah.
Going to an ashram and becoming a yoga master, although there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Can you tell us about your journey in writing your book FitCEO?
Lillian: Yeah. I think everything that you just mentioned was a perfect segue to that as well. I love it. It's flowing so naturally because, you talked about boundaries and being a woman and all that.
And actually one of the pillars that we talk about in this book FitCEO is boundaries. So this book is actually co-written by me and my coauthor, Rebecca -also a woman. She is the former CEO of Citibank. She was in the banking world for a long time. I think she was like a VP of Wells prior to that. Really, really impressive extensive career in the banking world.
And now she's, retired from that kind of part of her, life. And now she's moving more towards being board member and doing her own work. And this book is part of that. And so her and I met when I was, still deep in my fitness career, like 10 years ago, so 2011, when I started to integrate everything and create my holistic, life transformational, company. Right? So around that time is when I actually met Rebecca. And so we met at this very transitional time where I was trying to get out of fitness and go more into transformation, coaching and healing work. And she had just become the CEO of Citi.
And she's, she's traveling all the time. For work. And I was working at this fancy club in San Francisco, and I was basically like on my way out. And she requested a trainer to work with her very unique requests. She was like, you know, I'm not in town that often, I just want to use this one machine because, I visited my friend in some fancy island or something, she had this like vibration machine.
And like she said that you can get these like effective workouts and like a half hour. And I see that the, this club has it, can I work with the trainer on this? Because I need efficiency because I'm always gone. And I shit, you not,. I was literally the only trainer that was certified in this machine at the time. this is when being an overachiever, you know, pays off, I suppose.
You know? And so what are the odds I happened to be the only person that can actually train her. And I was like, oh, I don't know I'm not really trying to take on personal training clients. but like I said, she was never around, she kind of had unique needs.
So I was like, yeah, fuck it. I'll take her on. That was kind of how it all started. That's how we met each other. And, you know, we kind of like saw each other sporadically, for about a couple years and we just are so alike and different at the same time, like she's, she's from a literal generation or two above me, she's Jewish, she's married, she's got kids. Her kids now are like out of college in their twenties. We're so different generationally yet at the same time, we have so much in common. Both of her parents are psychology Jungian analysts.
And that's my shit. I went to Switzerland to study that briefly for post-graduate. That's what we were into, like these kinds of things that we didn't expect from each other, you know?
She let me introduce her to astrology and I would help her make sense of her husband using astrology was like, you would not expect, right. Just you know, like this woman and this like old school corporate kind of banking world. And yeah, we would just share so much about like life and our philosophies.
And we were just always on the same page. And so, we just made this pact that one day we were going to write a book called FitCEO, because she's a CEO, and what it means to be a fit CEO - this busy lifestyle of running so many ships, including the company, the household, your personal self, your health, your wealth, your family, your relationships, like what it just really means to run shit, you know?
And so we made this pack where oh, FitCEO, like we got to write that book one day and we literally wrote this contract on a sheet and she was like one day, we're going to write this book together. This was eight years ago.
And still about a year ago she messaged me and she was like, Hey, I quit the corporate world. Like I'm starting my new venture. Like I'm ready to write this book. Are you down? And I was like, Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. I'm like, I'm kinda busy, like taking off with my stuff too, but like, all right, let's do it.
And yeah. And then the rest is history, so yeah, it's cool. And it's, it's beautiful because since we made that original pact eight years ago, I've been building my business and developing into a CEO of my own company as well, from an entrepreneurial perspective.
I have like people on my team now and it's like up and running. So it's pretty amazing to see here we are as two women, from different generations, her coming from a very traditional kind of corporate way, and me coming from building everything up, scrapping things together, like entrepreneurial style, like on my own journey of doing things and yet we have so much of the same philosophies. We agree on so many things, and it was so easy writing this book.
This book is really short and really simple. It's designed on purpose for you to flip to any page at any time and read a little story and then get some action items. So just like I said earlier about like how, you hear all these things about like how to live a fulfilled life and how to be happy, but no, one's really telling you like, okay, but what exactly do I do?
Right. And so this book is really just this really easy to flip to at any moment. You could read it front to back and read it like a program, or you can read it just like chapter by chapter of you know, oh, let me read this story about being in crisis in the middle of a merger and like how you keep your cool and like where you want to be with your mindset.
And then there's these immediate action steps from me of maybe this is a good time where you can bust out this tool or you can try this practice or try these exercises, et cetera. And so we kind of pair ourselves together of sharing these stories, painting the picture of like how this all fits in our philosophy, the way that we look at everything.
And how to actually do that in a practical way. What are some practical things that you can do to to continue to live out, that mindset or level up that belief or that philosophy . Yeah. And it's that, and it's not just for CEOs, right?
Like it's called fit CEO, but it's really about being the leader of your life. So it's like, how do you achieve holistic health, wealth in your life with your family in the workplace, at home with your own health and wellness. How do you do that while you are busy as fuck? You know what I mean?
Like here you are, you are like, you're working mom, like you're running this podcast. You've got kids like, I'm pretty sure, like you are CEO, if not the COO of your family. And so, you know, like who's the CEO of your family, is it you? Is it your husband?
Vanessa: I think it depends on who you ask and what time of day, but yeah, I think, when I became a mother, part of what made that transition tough was realizing that, yeah, holy shit.
I'm responsible for these two little kids and I don't know how to do any of this. I was Googling everything I was calling the doctor like, is this poop a normal color? How many days is it normal to have for this kid to have a fever you know, just all kinds of stuff. And you're just constantly afraid that you're gonna kill your kid or mess them up.
And then realizing that I also needed help and could hire, help and ask for help was something that was really tough for me, particularly because it came from an immigrant family where like mental health? That's not a thing. So I felt a sense of guilt about it too, about having the ability to hire help and oh, you know, maybe I'm not as good of a mom because I need help with laundry and cooking...
Lillian: mom guilt.
Vanessa: All this stuff. Yeah, yeah. That stuff is real.
Lillian: hell yeah.
Vanessa: It really had an impact on me and then I had to really turn it around and I'm still in the process of really coming into my own and being like, yeah, you know what? I am doing an amazing job being a mother and a working mother. And I'm a partner to my husband and running this house, which is not easy because I live in a hundred year old house and things break like every other day.
And my husband helps a lot with that. But just acknowledging that we can't do it on our own and we shouldn't have to, I think that was part of what becoming like CEO of my life kind of became, was like, oh, you know what? If you want to be this boss lady or, you know, boss babe, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't mean you're doing it on your own.
It means you have help and you ask for help and you set boundaries and you say, actually, I can't do this and I need help. So being able to say, I can't do this and I need help. Like right now was something that was so hard for me. And I had to learn that the hard way.
Lillian: That's boss shit. And that is boss shit. I don't know how it didn't make it into the book, fitCEO, but I'll never forget. Like I always laugh because my boyfriend, my partner, we're about to hit our nine year anniversary. It's always funny to call my boyfriend , but he actually, he actually works for me now. He actually works with me now.
Oh, awesome. He quit his full-time job. And he's all in with me. He joined me officially in June and he would always tease me. He'd be like, you know, baby, like you really need to start becoming the CEO of your company, but then but then at the same time, he's a big jokester and he'd always be like, yeah, all these people call themselves CEOs.
They don't even got anybody they manage. You can't be a CEO unless you actually manage people and you actually got people helping you. You actually have to have people helping you in. And so that's always stuck to me, you know?
He was saying it to be funny, but that really did stick to me because I think that's really true. If you are a CEO and you're running a household, like you are. Like a CEO has literally a whole company, a whole organization that is helping him carry out the vision like that, or he, or she, or whatever. That's what a CEO does. They hold the vision and delegate, and they'll just this is where I see us going.
This is how we're going to continue to build this, how we're gonna scale. This is how we're gonna head towards like these goals. And like, all right, like you handle this department, you take care of this at this time. Make sure that's shipped at this time and that's delivered, that's what it is.
So yeah. I love that. I love that. You're just like, yeah, like, how am I going to be a boss? If I'm not like getting folks to help me run this shit. You're not a CEO by yourself.
Vanessa: Exactly, exactly. And I think that's so liberating for any person who's thinking, like I'm just gonna build this on my own. There's only so much you can do on your own. For me, the community part and bringing other people along with me on the journey, that's what really makes everything worth it. It's not fun by yourself. You want to know that you're impacting other people's lives and that this matters to other folks who are really identifying with your journey and what you're going through.
So that's been helpful for me, both in my personal and professional life. Just seeking out that community, talking to other people who are going through similar points in their journey. Just so we feel a little bit less alone. So I love that, you really did manifest that in both your business and in your book.
My last question is you know, we talked about how societal or even our own expectations can keep us small and put these imaginary shackles on our potential. So what's your practical advice for unlocking our own natural, intuitive gifts at work at home at play, what's one thing we can do right now to action that?
Lillian: My knee-jerk reaction is you've got to spend time on yourself, you've got to invest in yourself period, period, because something that I would say is you, your internal growth is where success comes from. So earlier you said something about Maslow's needs, right? The hierarchy and how it should be flipped on its head. I love that you said that because I feel the exact same way.
All of our potential, all of that. It's already within us. Right. And so to me, when you prioritize that, the top of the pyramid, when you prioritize self-actualization ,when you prioritize it and you actually put that at the foundation, everything else just comes as a side effect.
Vanessa: Yes. Yes.
Lillian: Everything just comes by default as a side effect because that is where everything comes from.
Right. So if you think about it success, right? We all want to make money. We all want titles. You're the one that's making that happen. All of that success, all that money, all those wins, all that abundance, all of those accolades achievements. They're coming from you. You are the one that's making that happen.
So to me, it's such a fricking no-brainer that? Well then where should I invest? My time, energy and money? Well, the shortcut is actually to put that all towards me, put those resources towards me first, and then everything else will come as a natural side effect. So if I had to simplify and say one thing, I would start by saying invest in yourself. That's that's the number one trick. That's the hack. That's the shortcut. Invest in yourself because your internal growth, your health, your happiness is where everything else comes from. All your success, all your abundance, all the wins, it all comes from that.
What does it mean to invest in yourself? Time, energy resources. Okay. You have to spend time with yourself. You have to spend energy, getting to know yourself, working on yourself. You have to spend money on yourself. You just do right. We often think that we have to do everything on our own.
Especially as high achievers, we pride ourselves in figuring everything else out on our own. We'll just read the books. We'll read the books, I'm going to control. I'm going to control every step of my process. I'm going to control every step of my learning and growth and self-development and whatever.
Hmm. Okay. What if I actually told you that that's actually a shadow and that's actually coming from this deep seated, old ass programming that like, somehow you're weak if you get help? That somehow you didn't do it on your own if you get help. All of this is false advertising that we've been inheriting since our childhood. It's not right. You know? So as a matter of fact, like when you actually say I am worth spending a hundred dollars a session, $200 a session, a few thousand dollars a month on investing in myself. I invested, oh my God, too much money on myself. Like I'm all in.
Vanessa: No such thing!
Lillian: Yeah. I've been investing myself since I was literally like 18. I started seeing an acupuncturist when I was 18. I saw something, a friend of mine posted, we all want like a Lamborghini, right.
But we're like not like a Lamborghini on the inside. Right. And I'm saying like, not that we all actually literally want a Lamborghini, but I'm talking about you know, like a Lamborghini, it's like super hot, sexy, it's fast, it's powerful, it's expensive. But then we don't treat ourselves like that. We're constantly trying to take shortcuts on ourself, where we're cheap with ourselves. Right. And so one of my mentors, who I adore, she's been mentoring me since 2011, she said to me about my own clients, like when my own clients struggle to invest in themselves, because I raised my rates or whatever, the question is not, am I willing to spend this kind of money on Lillian?
Am I willing to spend this kind of money to work on myself? The question is actually, am I willing to stop being so cheap with myself. Hmm. And so when you look at it from that different frame, it's like stopping cheap with yourself, right? You have one life, you have one body, you have one shot and you could literally die tomorrow.
Right. Everybody fucking dies. That's the one thing that we know is certain. I could die tomorrow. I could die 10 years from now. I could live until I'm 120 God. I actually hope not because that's a long ass time, but if I am going to live till 120, well, then fuck, I better make sure that I'm a healthy and happy that I'm like actually able to maximize that time that I get to actually be on earth.
Right. And so why would I cheap out on that. So that to me is that is like my like number one, like hack advice, whatever. It's whatever it is that you're trying to pursue. You have to see yourself as the most important investment. So you have to pour that money, time and energy on yourself.
You've got to make time. You got to do that because everything else will. I know it seems counterintuitive, but I'm so busy. I got a job. I got deadlines. I got mouths to feed. I have a family. How can I make time for myself? Well, it's if you don't, you're going to be forced, like you said, your body's gonna choose.
Vanessa: You've built such a wonderful holistic method to doing that self work that as you said, investing in ourselves so important.
And I also ha you know, immediately thought of, you know, having come from kind of like the beauty fashion industry, you know, there's so much Messaging around. Okay. Yes. Invest in yourself. But on the outside, you know, if you look a certain way if you, you know, think about whatever dress you want to buy next or something, that's what investing in yourself looks like.
So imagine if you know that a couple hundred dollars that we're going to spend on that dress. We spent on that work that we could do to manifest our whole self and our whole lives. So I think that's something that. I'm hoping is going to be changing very soon with just kind of an awareness of, yes.
That new dress or whatever it is can make you happy, but it's not going to last this is something that could actually last and not only affect you, but impact everyone around you. And as women, we tend to have a community, whether we're parents or not, that we are nurturing or a part of. So it's really like a benefit that ripples out as you were saying earlier.
So I, I love that you had that message. It's one that we need to hear more and more.
Congrats again on the journey that you've survived and really thrived in, and you've also paid it forward for the community. So thank you again for taking the time to join us here today.
Lillian: Thank you so much for having me.