The Success Trap: How to Overcome Perfectionism and Live Authentically
Season 1 Episode 15
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In the pursuit of success, do we lose ourselves? As a recovering perfectionist, I spill the tea on my own personal journey going from corporate life to mom to podcaster to Lillian So, fitness entrepreneur and co-author of the new book FitCEO, and share the incredible lessons I’ve learned along the way on parenting, career and relationships. We dig into the ways I’ve had to be vulnerable, brave, and listen to my intuition, while observing my inner critic with compassion and curiosity.
In this podcast episode, we talk about observing moments of negative self-talk and using them as opportunities to reframe our perspectives, to uncover our real truth and potential. We talk about ways to find validation, healing, and empowerment in ourselves and as a community - especially for women of color, mothers, and Asian Americans. Most importantly, how can we start embracing - instead of judging - our own gloriously messy lives? We share how to cultivate a life where we’re allowed to make mistakes and learn from them, try new things, and live authentically and joyfully in our personal and professional lives.
5-MINUTE MINDFUL JOURNALING PROMPT: This podcast has a BONUS 5-minute journaling exercise at the end that I have personally found helpful in moments of self-doubt, fear, and anxiety. It will help you gain perspective on your own ways of thinking and help you cultivate joy, confidence and peace right now.
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episode music courtesy of Uppbeat [ATM and Sanchii]
5-minute Journal Prompt:
The Success Trap
How to Lean into our Authentic Selves, Boost Confidence, and Reduce Stress and Anxiety
Before you start this meditation and journaling exercise, focus on your breath and slow down. Inhale, pausing at the top of the inhale, and exhale, mindfully observing the breath as it completes its cycle, in and out, 3-4 times.
Question: Would you rather be on a peak or in a valley?
When it comes to our personal journeys, media, society and culture have told us a singular story: it’s better on top. Get to the mountain peak.
On season 3 of Master of None, Dev, Aziz Ansari’s character, tells Denise, Lena Waithe’s character, that she’s “in a valley” in the aftermath of being dumped by her longtime partner and struggling to fight off the anxiety, creative drought and imposter syndrome of producing a 2nd best-selling, critically acclaimed book.
Yet, while watching the throwback film Land Before Time with my 3 year old daughter, Littlefoot the dinosaur is unexpectedly orphaned and creates his own unlikely family of several other displaced young species of dinosaurs on a journey to find the Valley - a lush, verdant place where plant food is plentiful and the sunlight abounds.
Have you ever climbed a mountain? Admittedly, the view on top is gorgeous - a panorama of breathtaking wonder, the sense of accomplishment and self-satisfaction beaming up your entire body as you take in the view. But the reality is, after a few minutes, or maybe even an hour, you’re ready to come back down and rejoin the rest of the world.
Why is that?
Are we really happier at the top? Or is it that the air is a little thinner, and we are lonelier?
What if there is merit to being in a valley, because we can see the mountain peak? Because there are others with us who also understand what it’s like to be suffering?
What if the best part of climbing a mountain is just that - climbing a mountain? And bringing others with us to enjoy that beautiful view on top?
So I invite you to reflect upon this and think about where you are in your journey today.
Are you in a peak or a valley? Or are you climbing that mountain?
Regardless of which one it is, what are some ways you can turn around, lift your eyes, take a deep breath and enjoy that view? This can be as simple as mindful meditation, taking a walk, or visualizing yourself on that mountain.
Who can you connect with around you to join you on your journey? It may be someone you know, and it may be someone you have not even encountered yet.
Trust in yourself and your journey. And bring someone else along with you. Together, we are less alone. Together, we can name our fears and anxieties, so we can find freedom and happiness.
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Full Interview Transcript
Vanessa: Are we our own worst enemies? We all have goals, but we may also have days where we feel stuck wandering in the “valley”, far away from that shiny lofty “peak”, whether it's a job title, relationship, or any other personal goals. In this podcast episode, we talk about observing moments of negative self-talk and using them as opportunities to reframe our perspective and actually uncover our real truth, potential and worth. We talk about ways to find validation, healing, and empowerment in ourselves, and as a community.
To be honest, I almost didn't release this podcast episode because I was scared about speaking my truth about my decision to leave the corporate world, my struggles as a mom with postpartum depression and my own messy life, where I feel like I'm still figuring out so many things as an entrepreneur, woman, wife, mother, daughter, and sister.
And then I thought, why was I allowing this fear to silence me? Wasn't my mission to normalize these emotions and struggles because they are what foster community and connection, true grit and resilience, and the threads that make up the fabric of an authentic, fulfilling life? So as a recovering perfectionist, I share with you my own vulnerable journey, what inspired me to start this podcast, the incredible people I've met along the way, and the ways I’ve had to be brave and listened to my intuition while observing my inner critic with compassion and curiosity. This way I can learn how to tame the doubts negativity and rise above them. And if you're ready to rise above your fears, doubts and negative self-talk, try our journaling exercise to gain perspective on your own ways of thinking that may be holding you back from finding joy, confidence, and peace.
Right now, you can find it at thrivespicemedia.com or at the end of this episode, where we'll walk you through a guided journal exercise.
Vanessa: Before we begin. I'm so happy to share some feedback that we got from a listener whose name is Deanna Vy. She says, Hey Vanessa, I just discovered your podcast. And I just have to say your interviewing and listening skills are superb I've listened to a couple episodes now and really enjoyed all of them.
Can't even pick a favorite the way you guide the conversation, throw in relevant stats, ask thoughtful questions and connect to your guests is so engaging and it's easy to follow as a listener. I really hope this podcast grows and reaches more folks, especially those in our AAPI community. Just from the handful of episodes I've listened to,
I feel seen, heard, understood and less alone, and that's something I'm so grateful for. Thank you for all the hard work you're putting into building this community, especially as you navigate motherhood and entrepreneurship, huge challenges on their own. Let alone doing them both at the same time. I see you, from a new listener and community member, Deanna. Thank you so much. This is the closest I've felt like getting to a virtual hug ever. I'm so happy to hear this. This is really just why I do this podcast. I don't get paid it's completely volunteer and I just get paid in love, and this is very much an expression of love. So thank you so much, Deanna.
Really, really love hearing from you listeners. I'm just happy to be here and really help you all feel heard and seen and contribute to this safe space where we can talk about all the things no one ever talks about. So thank you. You can also leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Send me a DM on Instagram at thrive spice or email us at info at thrive spice media.com.
And we'd be happy to not only reply, but also share your review or feedback on a future podcast episode. Also check out Deanna's YouTube channel. It is amazing. She has videos about speaking our truth and self-sabotage, um, we should have her on this podcast sometime! I'm so happy to be building this community alongside so many incredible people, just like Deanna and you. Thank you. And just a quick reminder to follow us on Instagram at thrive spice. We're also at Facebook and YouTube all as thrive spice. We have
videos and quotes and a lot of fun tips and stories to help you on your own mental health journey. We have the full videos of our Thrive spice interviews are actually on YouTube.
So you can watch them. If you prefer to watch your podcasts, or you can just listen as you multitask, which is usually my preferred method of podcast listening, whatever floats your boat.
Lillian: So Vanessa, first of all, thank you so much for making the time and joining me . You're in New York. Yes. And I'm in San Francisco. So first things first, you know, I just want to start with just some of the basics. I would love for you to just introduce yourself and, just kinda tell us a little bit about you and as well as your podcast, just right off the gate.
The thing that jumped out to me obviously is the name of your podcast, like right off the gate. Like as soon as I saw that, like I was like, Ooh, I love it. I love the word Thrive, and I love the word Spice. I was like, I feel like she's like one of us, you know, and then, and then connected. And then like, as soon as we had our first conversation, it was just so easy and natural.
And then I found out that you were Leo too. And I was like, I mean, of course. You know? So the whole thing, it was just, it's just been such a pleasure to connect with you. , and of course, like I'm always super excited to not only meet another Leo, but I'm also always excited to meet other Asian-American women who are, well, just like doing things. Like just trying to step out of their comfort zones, you know, while still trying to like live our best lives and like honor our family's wishes and be the best daughter, wife, mother version of us, you know, like so much pressure. Exactly. But it's just so nice to just connect with folks that are just doing it.
And then also trying to help share the stories of other people who are doing it as well. So yeah. With that said, Vanessa, I would love for you to just kind of take the mic from here and just tell us a little bit about you and, and a little bit about your podcast.
Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Lillian, for having me here on your Live session today, I'm so excited and super grateful that you also spent time talking to me on the podcast, we just released the episode today about really bossing up and being CEO of your own life. So my name is Vanessa Shiliwala. I am Chinese and Taiwanese American. My parents immigrated here from Taiwan and Hong Kong and they came to Wisconsin where there weren't a ton of other Asian folks around. So, I grew up in a very non diverse place. And I ended up moving to New York City to really kind of get away from that and went to NYU, studied communications, and ended up working in marketing for over a decade, mainly in the beauty industry. And I also, along the way, got married. My husband is Indian-American, also first-generation. We have two crazy toddlers together, who really keep us on our toes. So I went through a lot of life changes, especially like in the last five years. So particularly after I had my first daughter, I just kind of like, you know, I was working hard and I had this personal goal of being like director of marketing by 30.
And then I got there at 29 and I was like, Is this it? I was like, I don't, I don't really feel that different. I don't feel like, all of a sudden, all of my happiness is overflowing or anything. And I really thought to myself, well, something is missing. And a couple of years after that, I had my first daughter and I thought to myself, you know, I think it's time for a change.
And I decided to kind of step out of the workforce and spent her first year at home with her to really lean into being a stay at home mom for a year. And it was the most difficult job I'd ever had in my life. Like the, no sleep, on 24/7, you're Googling everything. Cause you're just like, oh my God, I'm doing this wrong. Or you're asking Alexa, you're like, Alexa, is this normal? And we're calling your doctor asking, is this normal? And the answer is like 99% of the time. Like, yes, it's normal.
Lillian: I love everything that you've already shared just in the first few minutes because I think it was like Monday, I was having my weekly coaching call with my members inside the practice container.
And I was asking my clients do, uh, I was asking my clients like, oh, how's your weekend? How are you feeling? Susie was like, I am fucking poop. Like, I don't know how parents do it. Like apparently, like she spent like all day or the weekend or something like that, like with her nieces and nephews, like it's two of them.
And she was like, what the fuck? Like, how did this, she was like, this shit is so hard. It's so exhausting.
Vanessa: It's called the adult power nap and like mom groups, that's how we do it. But for real, it was the hardest job I'd ever had. I found myself actually going through postpartum depression and I was like, what is going on? So I went to go see a therapist. I tried to figure out how to really manage through that. And I learned a lot about myself and why it was so hard to kind of leave this career identity I had crafted for myself, and then really lean into being a mom and that whole world. And that was a really difficult transition for me, but I also think it was a huge blessing because it allowed me to really examine what really matters to me.
And when I was pregnant with my girl, I was thinking, you know, do I really want to be part of this machine in the beauty industry that keeps telling women that they're not enough? And I wanted my daughter to grow up in a world where she felt enough just as she was - that her skin color, when she came out of the womb, was perfect. And that she didn't need to change it. I wanted to send the message to young women of how to live at their full worth, how to embrace themselves, how to love themselves.
So that was one thing I realized. And then the second was, I was like, well, let me take this moment - this pause - to really think about things that are important to me. So one of them was entrepreneurship. So I actually enrolled myself into a startup accelerator program. I applied and got in here in New York and learned a lot about Lean Startup principles, but I think two things were huge takeaways from that. One was, just getting to talk to a lot of different people who were in the same kind of head space, you know, trying to pivot into something new, trying to learn something, really pushing themselves out of their comfort zone. but also I learned how to talk about my life story and figure out how I was going to align with my core values.
That was really the most important lesson. You know, you write down your core values, you figure out, okay, how can I live in alignment with my core values? What would I do for free? and how can I manifest that? So, I initially went in thinking that I was going to do something around sustainability, because that's always been an interest of mine.
And I was taking a course in Sustainability from The New School. And the more I learned about it, the more I discovered that sustainability is actually about making the world a better place for the next seven generations. So yes, you know, go plastic free and all that, but it really has a much bigger impact than just, you know, materials.
And it also affects communities of color, way more than it does with just, you know, regular white folks. So around the same time, the Stop Asian Hate report came out about all of the hate crimes against Asian folks and particularly elders. And it just really, just really hurt me and the Atlanta Spa shooting happened. And I literally found myself struggling to feel comfortable to go into a grocery store or public places for a couple of weeks. It really affected my mental health. And the more that I talked about this with some of my friends in the community, the more, they also said, you know what? Me too. It's been really hard dealing with and hearing about all this trauma. It's kind of reigniting a lot of racial PTSD and racial trauma that we've had, intergenerational trauma. As an Asian woman, we tend to kind of bring like a hundred people with us into the room, wherever we go, because we're holding that trauma from so many generations before us, after us, you name it.
And so in holding it, we haven't had an outlet to really talk about it. And so I thought, okay, you know what? I need to create a safe space for us to just talk about this, because the more research I did on mental health with the Asian community, Asian Americans in particular, I saw that Asian Americans are actually three times less likely than white people to get help for mental health issues.
Young Asian-American women between the ages of 15 and 24, are the number one racial group to die by suicide. And Asian men in that same group are number two. And that's a huge problem. People are literally losing their lives because there are so many barriers to seeking help and talking about it and normalizing the discussion around it.
And so I thought, okay, well, what's a sustainable thing to do? It's actually to create a space to do that. And so that's how Thrive Spice was born. And the name is kind of funny because, I like to cook a lot. So one of my favorite spices is five spice, which is kind of this like uniquely, you know, like kind of "ABC", Chinese American kind of spice. It's like a little American, a little Asian. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to just take that and kind of change it around and be like, here's, here's that secret sauce to survival. It's Thrive Spice.
Lillian: I don't think I realize that that's where that came from. I forgot what, like hearing it again. I'm like, oh my God. I love it.
Vanessa: Yeah. And yeah, like to your point earlier, it's a little bit about that, like, Spice. Right? Like, because I think as Asian-Americans, we've been kind of stereotyped into the model minority myth of being like quiet and hardworking and everything. And, while I was at one of the companies that I worked at, I was also president of the Asian Network there, which was their diversity and inclusion group.
And we held a lot of speaker panels on trying to gain career succession for Asian-Americans in the organization and having senior leadership really sponsor that full trail. And it was really difficult. And I feel like the conversations that we're having then, we're still having them today and that's a problem. Right? So I thought that it was a perfect opportunity to really try to create that space where we can talk about it. You know, everything from the bamboo ceiling to model minority myth, to depression and anxiety, just, you know, make it normal and just talk about it in a real way. And I also wanted to interview people who are really successful in their own right. But also show that a lot of people who are the most successful, they actually had the most mental health struggles because they continue to push themselves both externally and internally. So we have external situations and then internally, because a lot of us are like, first-generation like children of immigrants or we're women of color.
We just always had that extra baggage that we're trying to process. And there just haven't been as many resources out there to help us through it. So I I'm really trying to be very Asian American centric and really focused on women of color, particularly moms, especially because I know that struggle is real.
And just celebrate, you know, not only the mess and the grit, but also the joy and the resilience of our community, because we are stronger together. So. This was like literally a little over six months ago. So it's been a short, but wild ride so far. I've met some really incredible people. So I'm very grateful.
Lillian: We are just so on the same page, you know, and I just love everything that you're sharing and saying, because you know, everything that you're saying about yes, like how Asian-Americans are, I mean, three times. Less likely, like that's a huge number, right? Like highest suicide rate, like yes, exactly.
Like being Korean American, like Koreans have the highest suicide rate in the world, like that, I care about that shit. You know, how do we change the trajectory for that? It's like, okay, well, like I may not be able to like, literally change it, like in this quantity right now, but like, we can just start with what's right in front of us.
I love what you're saying about creating safe spaces, because. Everything, right. Everything that you said about sustainability and what, and yes, of course, like go plastic free, but it's like, it's bigger than that, right? Totally. Well, that actually really means what that actually means to like create sustainability for the next many generations.
Then creating that safe space and the, how you create that safe space. I love all this cause we're talking about how to hold space in our home this week. So all of this week we have two coaching calls a week and we're literally talking about how to hold space. What does that actually mean? what is the opposite of that?
And why is that even so important in the first place? And you're literally touching on all of those things. So like our alignment right now is on fire. So much of the reason why we need to hold space for this, everything that you said is exactly right. I mean, a lot of our traumas and, you know, I know that the T word can seem kind of scary, but they can be big T's, small T's, micro-T's, everything in between. A lot of that comes from us, just not having the space, you know, to share stories and have a place to like share, unpack and do all these things. So I love, I love that. That's where your natural intuition. Study and self study and all that. Like, I love that.
That's where it took you to, and that's just beautiful.
Vanessa: Thank you. Yeah. You know, I think a lot of it's just about like, almost like community or collective healing. Like we're all going through some shit right now. And especially the pandemic that really showed us that there's a lot of suffering and pain and it's tough right now.
But I think the beauty of that is that it really allowed us to have this moment where we came together and organized and we're like, oh, actually we do need to create some space for this. And you know, my message in your, in regards to suicide. You are not alone. We are all experiencing some degree of pain.
There's a lot going on in the world right now. And I think that particularly for our generation, in our age group, you know, we're kind of in the sandwich generation, we have like younger kids or other people were taking care of. And then we're also kind of starting to take care of our parents or, you know, older family.
And so it's really hard to find time for ourselves. But what I had to learn the hard way as a mom was like, if I don't make time for myself, everyone suffers, not just myself, my kids, my husband, the people around me. I can't be my best self if I don't take care of myself. And I think it's a real clash with previous generations where the role of mom was like very sacrificial. You know, she gave up everything and especially in immigrant communities, we see this a lot where the immigrant mom, you know, we know this story, she gives up everything and there is merit in that, and I'm not knocking that. It's also a privilege, right?
We've had the privilege of higher education, opportunity, as you know, American born. So we have opportunities, but at the same time being asked to do what was expected of that previous generation in a totally different time, in totally different circumstances, it's not realistic and it's not healthy. So that was just something I had to learn the hard way.
Lillian: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, you are a mom of two. How old are your, you have two daughters, right? Yeah.
Vanessa: So I have a, almost two year old and I have a three and a half year old. So they're at like that crazy, like age, like everything is in negotiation. I will tell you like becoming a mom, like, you know, how to run a tight ship and kind, kinda like negotiate. Like my husband and I, we joke - well, it's not that funny, but we're like our toddlers are terrorists because we're like, are we going to negotiate with terrorists today? And sadly, yes, we do. We do negotiate with them every day. But you know, also just learning and unlearning a lot of parenting techniques that we learned as kids, particularly, you know, our parents' generation, they had very different ideas about how to raise kids and, you know, positive parenting was not a thing.
So, you know, I've gotten feedback like, oh, you're complimenting your daughter too much. And like, what's she going to amount to? And I'm like, you know, I'm like, I'm actually really happy with where she is right now. And like all the Asian parents now grandparents are like, oh my God, like, that's not a real answer.
Like, that's not okay.
Lillian: So funny. Yeah. That must be a trip to like, see that like juxtaposition, you know, that's crazy, so I love that. So they're like two and a half, like two, three, there must be absolute madness in your house. But even with that said, like, you know, you've got to do so much negotiation. It's so much madness in the house.
And you were saying like, if you, if you don't get taken care of, like, nobody gets taken care of. Yeah, maybe in the phase that you're in right now, you know, we have a handful of moms in our community with children, your age as well. So like, I'm sure they're just like yasss, girl - terrorist? I get that, you know. What has been like your like absolutely non-negotiables for you that have been like, I have to absolutely give this to myself or else repeat the same generational trauma with my kids?
Vanessa: So it's been the hardest lesson to learn, but really giving myself time and really time to be and do the things that make me feel whole. So, you know, my old kind of thinking was like, okay, the more I sacrifice for my family, the more they're going to love me. And I was so wrong about that.
So wrong. And I still find myself slipping into that sometimes, like it's a real slippery slope. You're like, oh my gosh. If I cook like three extra meals this week, like they're going to love me. No guess what? That meal is going to end up on the floor. Cause I have toddlers. And the first thing they do when they see food is they throw it on the floor.
So it's like, so can't measure your love in that. And I think it's just like carving out space. For me, you know, mental health is really about... you go into a bar, right? Like everyone has a different drink they want to order. Right. Because through years of trying different things, you're like, okay, I want a martini.
I want a beer. I want a glass of wine. So it's different for everyone in terms of like what fills their cup, quite literally in terms of their mental health and self care. So for me, it was a combination of like couple of years of therapy. I still go, it's kind of like my weekly, like tune up in terms of just kind of processing all the stuff that I went through that week, and really having someone who's a licensed professional to talk about it in a safe space. And by the way, she's also an Asian woman. I can't stress enough that it's really hard to find a therapist who kind of understands your cultural background, but it's so important for some people, because you don't want to have to translate half your life for your therapist every time.
Or like bring a PowerPoint deck every time. You're like, this is what it's like in Asian culture. So, like, she gets it.
Lillian: So many times, by the way, like little thing, like I've heard it so many times from clients coming to me where they're like, I found myself having to like explain and then certain point it's like, okay, like I'm literally spending half of my session just giving you...
Vanessa: "Your time is up! I now kind of understand on the surface level, what Asian culture is like." You're like, but I still need help. Yeah, so definitely finding a great therapist and then also the physical part, right? So I've tried a lot of things over the years. I used to do like sprint triathlons. I used to be like a competitive runner and swimmer.
And then, you know, you enter adulthood and in career and mom life and you're like, oh, I don't have time for any of these things. So it's just kind of figuring out physical activity. I recently tried standup paddle-boarding yoga. I loved it. I've been back like four times in the last month. So I, it just really gives me a lot of peace because it's basically like doing yoga on like a floating yoga mat, which is your paddleboard.
And like, it's kind of a mind trip at first. You're like, oh my God, my mat is moving?! But once you literally go with the flow, like you start to really relax and you realize like that this is life, like just literally your yoga mat is not straight ever. You just have to constantly adjust and just when you think you're like cruising, it's like, bam, you could fall into the water.
So that's been good just in kind of like centering me. So I think finding kind of physical practice, whether it's yoga or biking some times? And then, I really think that finding good childcare is still really hard and still very important. So we tried like everything we had nanny, we had live in nanny.
Now the combination that tends to work well for us is we send our kids to daycare and they actually have full programming all day. They also do yoga. They have Spanish, they have music. I was like, school is not like this when I was growing up. Like it was play time all day. Like it's very structured.
Exactly. And I was like, you know, I had to tell myself, cause I had a lot of mom guilt about it because I spent both of my daughters' first years at home with them . You know, breastfeeding the whole nine yards, like sacrificial mom. And I really lost myself in the process. And so I had to tell myself like, okay, Vanessa, like, they're actually better off in the school environment because they've got socialization.
They have multiple teachers, they have structured activity. You really think you're going to like whip out the arts and crafts table, at 2:00 PM every day, or like give them a Yoga lesson or bring out a guitar and start singing. Like, no, you're not going to do that because you have so much other stuff to do as a mom.
So I really had to kind of let go and I think like the old person in me would have been like, oh, you're lowering your standards. But another thing I really had to learn was about positive self-talk because I think I was trained from years of just growing up in the Asian American community to kind of like, think about the negative self-talk like, oh, how do I compare it to others? And what am I doing? That's like, not as good as somebody else or like how, how could, how would my parents criticize me even? So, you know, it's really unlearning that. And so I would start to keep journals where I would write. Something negative. I thought about myself.
Like I'm a bad mom or something. because I blew up at my kid. And then on the opposite side, I would write like, I'm actually a good mom because I help provide for them. I dressed them in the mornings. I teach them, you know, these lessons about morality, and what's right and wrong, and you teach them how to be independent.
And they actually say they love me sometimes. Sometimes they also say to go away, that's okay. That's normal. So it's just kind of like reframing and then embracing that like two things can be true at once. Right? Like you can feel like you're not good enough, but you can also look at the other side of the coin and say, well, actually, here's what I am doing.
And I think also just kind of, you know, reframing that in terms of my own career, like, oh, I'm staying home as a mom. I'm like missing out, you know, I'm falling behind or something. It's was like, well, actually, here's what I've learned. And here's what I've accomplished. And here's what I'm doing. And you know, something that I heard from another guest on my podcast was that she was really like, when you're in the midst of a transition, you just need to keep showing up to this space that you're passionate about. Right. And then things fall into place for you and, you know, opportunities open up. It's really this like plan of abundance. But as Asians, we have to learn to like, let go a little bit. And that is so, so difficult.
I'm still in the process of trying to like, learn to do that. And I'm not going to lie. It's messy at times.
Lillian: I love that. And I love what you shared about how you'll say, like, you'll have this negative thought of like, oh, I'm a bad mom, but then you'll reframe that. And what you're describing there is what I teach all my clients are, which is like a go-to tool for all of us, which is, uh, when you go into those places, it's not about positive thinking, which you did not say, which I appreciate because it's not about positive thinking.
It's actually about going to. It's about going to the truth. Right? So what we do instead of going to combat that negative talk, instead of points, positive talk, it's about, it's actually about going to the truth of the matter, the truth is that like I provide for my children. They told me that they love me every now and again, like I care about their wellbeing.
I cook them a meal, I cook them a meal, even after they throw it back in my face. Like I still got them dressed, you know, it's like, No, that's the truth. So I, I love that you share that because that's exactly, it's so simple, but we forget that we can really quickly turn that around. You know, it's, it's almost so much easier to just kind of go into the self-loathing deprecating place.
Feels so familiar, you know? Yeah,
Vanessa: I think it feels familiar and safe for some of us because we feel like, oh, if I criticize myself first, no one can criticize me. And it's almost like a defense mechanism, but then we don't realize like, well, if I really own that awareness of myself and really own what I've accomplished, actually like people are going to see that and then,
things are going to come for me. So, I think it was a really hard but important lesson to learn.
Lillian: Love that. Rich is watching and he said, are, y'all sure you haven't known each other before? The same train of thought. I'm like, I know I love when that happens. And so good. So, Vanessa, so I'm curious. I want to ask just a couple of questions about your podcast.
Yeah. And then, you know, we can slowly start to wrap up. So, you know, I can't believe that your podcast is only six months old. To be honest, I feel like you're like, you're in it. You know, like just energetically. And I think this is. Once again, it just goes to show it doesn't really matter how long you've been doing something or like, or none of that.
None of that vanity stuff really matters at the end of the day. It's like, you can feel energy, you can feel intention, you can feel hearts that goes beyond, behind certain things. And so even with your podcasts, like when you told me, like, it was only, it's only been around for six months, I was like, oh wow.
Like it actually, it feels, it feels really rich, you know, like, you know, there's just been a lot of intention and richness. That's gone into it so far. You know, with that said, I'd love to hear it from your words, what, you know, obviously you've told us what the intention is, but what has really been like your favorite thing that has come out of this process over these last six months so far?
Like what, like your biggest like golden nugget in the past six months’ journey?
Vanessa: You know, thank you for that. I think that really the richness of the community has been my joy and you know, some of them, you know, some of these people I knew before, but actually most of them were strangers or they were people who were referred to me.
And they're like all my children. Like, I feel very proud of them
Lillian: You are talking just like me right now. Like, stop. It's like the longer we talk, it's like creeping me out, literally how I talk about my containers, what? Sorry. Um, hashtag #adultbabies.
Vanessa: I always say like, you can learn from anybody and I still believe that, but these are not just anybody's, these are all somebodies. And I want to tell everyone here, like you are a somebody. And I think that's, what's really inspirational about learning about anyone's journey. Right? Like everyone has been through something. And I think that, with social media, like, we don't talk about it.
We just give them the highlights or like, oh, so-and-so's going here. They're in Bali. They're in the Maldives. And, you know, our private jet. And no one's really talking about the gritty times. And I was like, you know what? We need to talk about that a little bit more because I learned when I became a mom and I learned through this podcast, like when we open up and talk about this, like, there was so much richness that comes and there's so much collective healing that happens.
And someone may have thought they even healed from it already, but healing is not linear. It's something that, okay, we reopen the wound, we take a look, we give it some compassion. We hear it out. We give it space. And then all of a sudden we're like, okay, I feel a little bit lighter. I can let this go now.
And it may come back again and that's okay. And so I think that was a really important lesson just to see that, you know, not only was I not alone, that everyone went through a lot of these similar feelings. I think that's where that richness comes from. It's just the authenticity of, you know, everyone's going through something and everyone has struggled to feel seen or heard.
And that pain is shared. It's a collective pain. And to be able to say like, you know what? You can talk about it here and we're going to welcome it. And we're going to get through it together. I see you and I see you in your journey, that is where the strength is. So I think just finding that community of like-minded people who have just like, they all are actually quite different from each other, but they've all gone through something.
And I think finding that healing together is really powerful and holding space to talk about things that they might not have shared with anybody before. And then also removing that element of shame. Like, It's not something to be ashamed of, to be talking about something traumatic that happened to you.
And that is something that I think is really new for our generation. Even if we have, you know, gone to therapy or something, in a collective sense, it's more rare, right? Because we only want to like highlight the wins and everything. So I think that, we literally just experience and go through things together.
And I think that's where that nuance and that richness comes from.
Lillian: I love that. Oh my gosh. It's crazy. Like I'm having such a Leo moment. I was like, am I listening to myself? Are we...
Vanessa: Same braining. Yeah.
Lillian: I love it. It's it. It's just so, so wonderful to hear, just your take on everything and to just hear it, like, you know, mirrored back and, and I'm just, I'm so on the same page with you and it's just so, so beautiful and I'm so grateful, honestly, I'm so grateful that. You exist and that you get that, and that you want to continue to expand and ripple that out because we just really do need that more than anything, you know?
Um, has there been an episode… I always ask this question, has there been like an episode or episodes that have done particularly well? And do you see any common threads or common denominators in those?
Vanessa: Yeah. So one of the first couple of episodes that I did, and one of them was with Kimberle Lau, who is a good friend of mine that I know back in my days in the beauty industry.
And she has had a long history of empowering other women, particularly Asian American women. She actually nominated me to be the president of the Asian network. So we have this long history together. But she agreed to do the podcast interview. She was my second episode ever. She was super supportive.
She also has her own business. It's called Bake Me Healthy. And it's like a baking subscription box. So when she came on the podcast, we had a couple of topics we wanted to cover, but, you know, she ended up actually sharing something that she had never even shared with her personal friends and family before.
That was that she had survived a breast cancer scare, and she ended up kind of like breaking down a little bit on the podcast and, you know, showing her emotions. And we were like literally crying together. Because you know, it was such a traumatic experience, and we were processing it together as friends.
And, she also talked about positive parenting and how, her parents, like, you know, back then just like every other Asian parent, they hit their kids. You know, that was how you disciplined your child. And nowadays, you know, she's a parent of like relatively young children, trying to think about, what are some different ways I can parent them?
How are some ways I can instill values in them that make them good kind people, but also, enforce some boundaries? So it might have like different verbiage now and everything, but I think, you know, she was kind of talking about all of the obstacles that we face as modern women, where it's like, the bamboo ceiling and it's positive parenting and trying to manage our health during a pandemic, both physically and mentally.
It's really challenging. So I think she just really hit on a lot of different, very relevant pain points for people in our age group and particularly Asian-American women where we are kind of also taking care of our parents too, because her mother also had a breast cancer scare.
And so it was really tough for her, it's tough for all of us to really process all of this. And I think she was just very real and raw about it. And I think that's such a rare quality these days in the world of like hyper-edited everything. I think people just responded really well to Kim and her story.
Lillian: I love that you're saying that because I always ask this question every time I do one of these lives with, you know, a podcast, uh, an owner of a podcast. And everyone always says basically the same thing and what I'm ultimately hearing is authenticity and vulnerability. Like those episodes, like - they hit, you know. To me, my takeaway from that is that is what we are all seeking.
That is what we are all drawn to. That is what leads to magic connection, abundance. That is what leads to all the things that we're all seeking, you know? And so like when we see that, when we hear that, when we feel that in others, we gravitate towards that, you know? And so I just, that's such a huge takeaway re re reminder and lesson, you know, even from.
And my own clients about like, just continue to show up in your authenticity, continue to push yourself to push those edges of vulnerability, because that's really where the magic is. That's where, you know, people want to see that people are drawn to that. And that's where the abundance really does want to flow.
It wants to flow. So thank you for sharing that.
Vanessa: Yeah, of course. Yeah. You know, I think we spend a lot of our, you know, adolescence and even adult lives, like figuring out how to fit in and how to impress people and all that stuff. And you can certainly get to a certain status in life doing that, but that's how you end up like where I was, where you're just like, okay, I'm here now.
Why does it feel so empty? And it's because you just need to take a step back and realize, okay, what's important to me? You know, what are my core values? What makes me feel like fulfilled inside? And it might be a little bit different than what you thought it was. So I think that's a really great lesson for all of us.
And like I'm going to be real. Like I'm still learning that, I'm still very much on my journey. I'm not going to claim I have it all figured out. That's definitely not the case. And I don't think anyone does! No one has it all figured out. And I think that should give us some comfort actually. Like everyone's going through something.
Lillian: Exactly right. Like, it's almost like, oh my God, that should actually make you feel relieved. It's like, oh my God, thank God. No, one's got it figured out like, yeah. I was thinking it relieves so much pressure on us. It's like, yeah, we're all just trying to figure it out. And like that is.
So much of the purpose and the meaning of life is to walk each other home and to hold that space for each other so that we can continue to shed the parts of us that aren't who we are, so that we can continue to discover who we are, who we're supposed to be. It's like just this, this whole journey is about becoming, you know, Yeah, before we go off on a tangent in a rabbit hole on that, but yes, exactly.
So thank you for sharing that. Cause I hear you on that. It's like, oh, isn't that a relief that like, yeah. It's actually like bullshit to think that like anyone has figured out if anyone's claiming that it's like, yeah, I don't trust that person.
Vanessa: Right. Exactly. Something, I was thinking about the other day was like, is it better to be at the peak of mountain or in the valley?
Right. Cause sometimes we all feel like we're in the valley. We want to get to the peak. But sometimes I think it's really lonely at the peak. Yeah, for me, I feel like my sweet spot is just climbing the mountain, right. Like just knowing like I'm on the mountain, I am climbing and then just like literally take a moment and look around and be like, this is beautiful, or maybe there's a storm here and it's really kind of crazy right now, but, just kind of like taking in the moment. Meditation has really helped me with that too.
And in the podcast, we also talk about when you said "invest in yourself" and really being present. And we can't say that enough because like, It's really hard. It's really hard. And that's why we can't say it enough. But it will really help root us to being present and cultivating gratitude and abundance.
Lillian: Love it. Brian's like, this is uncanny - one of us! Isn't that what I said, I love it. Victoria's watching, too, Victoria's like, Lillian's my mom, Vanessa was like, so who is your client? And I was like, they're you, and you are them.
Okay. Okay. Because Brian's like, this is uncanny. One of us. It's so true. And I just, and you know, and I feel like I want to just like pause right there. I want to like capture that. I want to end on that note, because what you just said was so gorgeous about the mountain, because you were like the valley or the peak.
Exactly. Like you said, we often think that, you know, the peak is the goal. It's the destination. Like, we all think that we need to like, get there. We need to find the thing we need to achieve the thing, like once we get there, like you said, once I become director by 30, which as soon as you said that, I'm like, oh my God, you remind me of my girls, Shea was inside this container.
Like that, that's her thing, like director by whatever. And she's also in marketing too. So I was like, oh my God, I hope she watches this later because this is on point. Um but yeah, we all think like that, that mountain, that top. But like, you literally can just visualize it and say, wow, like it is kind of lonely there.
And I love what you said about like, where I would rather be, is like on the mountain, in the journey, you know, like looking around and I got chills as you said that, I was like, oh my God, that is like so gorgeous. Like I could cry. wow. That really is exactly it. Right. We always talk about like, it's about the journey, not the destination we hear about these things.
I just, I just love that. I love that analogy. I don't know why I haven't heard it before. I don't know if you've ever used it before if you heard it somewhere else, but I just,
Vanessa: No, yeah. I journaled about it, but I like never talked about it publicly. You know, I was having like a really low day and I just felt like I was in the valley and I was just like, kind of really meditating.
I'm like, okay, I'm in this valley. Like, What does it feel like? And I was like, well, do I really want to be on that peak? And then I thought, okay. I remember actually what it feels like to be on that peak. And I was like, it's not what you think it is. And that was really helpful for me.
Lillian: Oh, my gosh, I seriously, I'm like, my eyes are literally like - the onions, we like to call it. The onions, the onions are out, you know, it's like, wow, like, I'm going to remember that visual. I mean, like who, isn't a visual learner, like I'm so gonna remember that visual, like forever, because it really is like, that's where it is. Like, and also it actually reminds me of the most epic hike I've ever done in my life was in Switzerland.
I didn't know the most epic hike I know, like in Switzerland. I didn't know that it was going to be like this crazy epic hike. Right? Like, I wasn't even planning on hiking when I was there, but I was there for this thing and then someone invited me and whatever. So, but every time - it was a craziest hike I'd ever done.
And that view at the time, it was like the most majestic. It was like the most absurd thing. Like, oh my God, we finally fucking got there. Like it was, it took hours, you know? But whenever I think back to that hike, I actually have to like go out of my way to think about that moment at the top and what that looked like.
That's actually not what I remember about that hike. So what I remember about that hike was every time we went up like a new field of flowers or like the the jagged, like Rocky part that I had to like scale, you know? Or like when my ankle was like, oh my God, am I going to like, fucking like break my ankle right now?
Like, this is so deep. Like, those are all the things that are memorable and that were meaningful. And that I remember, I literally remember like thinking like, holy shit, this looks like a fucking Ricola commercial. Like this is in that. That's what I remember. I hardly even remember like the people I wish I took more pictures along the way.
Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. And we can think thanks to modern technology, but also just taking pictures mentally, right? Like not just with our eyes, like, you know, smelling, hearing, like touching, I think the five senses are like underrated. Like we need to them more often. And that really helps ground us to the moment because like, I've also suffered from like anxiety attacks and like that's always really helped if in the moment I'm like, oh my God, I'm panicking right now. And then I just try to like, literally slow things down and focus with all five senses. Like, what am I hearing right now? What am I seeing smelling? And then I realized, okay, like, I'm okay. Like I'm alive in this moment. And the world is still, you know, it's going on and it's doing its thing.
Uh, I love it. Wow, thank you so much, Vanessa. I just feel like that was like a huge mic drop for you. And I, I feel like we can wrap this up now with like so much contentment and peace.
Yeah, I know. No, thank you so much. This was so much fun and yeah, like I think we really connected, we're on the same wavelength and I really love that you're also facilitating this amazing healing space and journey for your community. Um, it's so important and, and there's not enough of us in the world. And so I feel like the more we can kind of bring into this conversation, the more we can impact.
Lillian: For sure. I love it. Vanessa, it's such a pleasure to just connect with you again and to be able to like be reversed, you know,
Vanessa: I know! It's weird, I'm in the hot seat now. It's not easy, but definitely appreciate the opportunity. So thank you.
Lillian: Is there anything in particular, aside from your podcasts that you would either like to promote or that you would like us to support you in?
How can we support you? How can we continue to, you know, build with you and stay connected?
Vanessa: I think mainly the podcast. If you like it, subscribe, download. You can leave us a review on apple podcasts. You can donate at Ko-fi. There's tons of ways that you can help support us. Tell your friends and family, it's mainly just kind of spreading the word, and getting people more people aware of Thrive Spice. And, you know, we'd love to hear from you. If there are certain people that you think would be great for the podcast, or you want to hear about certain topics, let me know. Join the community. Thank you so much.
Lillian: Yeah, I love it. Oh my gosh. Vanessa, it's been such a pleasure, we're going to go ahead and sign off here, but thank you so much for jumping on. It's been a minute since we had a, I call these Wednesday Wisdom sessions.
Vanessa: Oooh, I like it.
Lillian: Love it. Thanks so much for joining us.