Nancy Luong on Breaking Bamboo Ceilings in Tech, Immigrant Dads, and Money Myths in a "Bling Empire" World
Thrive Spice Podcast Season 2 Episode 5
Asian Women Rising Series | Vanessa interviews Nancy Luong, a senior marketing leader at Salesforce, author of "How We Got Here Journal", and recently crowned Ms. Southern California 2023. We talk about why allyship is the key to breaking the Bamboo Ceiling and Glass Ceiling, how genuine conversations can help heal intergenerational trauma with immigrant parents, and busting money and success myths in a “Bling Empire” World.
Nancy shares her personal mission to break down walls and barriers - whether it’s the Bamboo Ceiling at work, awkward family dynamics due to intergenerational trauma, or a “lack”/ scarcity mindset when it comes to personal finance and success. We talk about the importance of mental health for men, and why her struggles to connect with her emotionally distant dad inspired to write “How We Got Here Journal” and how gratifying it is to “see the walls come down” in their relationship.
Plus: Vietnamese food and the common bond of Asian moms never measuring ingredients, the frugal eco-warrior upcycling “immigrant mindset” that we experienced as kids, and unpacking personal finance myths that tie your happiness to your net worth or title.
About Nancy:
Nancy Luong is a Digital Program Manager at Salesforce and Co-President of AsiaPacforce with a background of 15+ years experience in digital marketing. She's a proud first generation daughter to Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants. Nancy is a Long Beach local, and a graduate of California State University Long Beach (CSULB). She is now a successful Fortune 500 senior marketer, financial content creator, keynote speaker, university educator, equality advocate, enthusiastic storyteller, and bestselling published author.
She believes everyone has a story and has created the How We Got Here Journal for you to tell your story. The journal is filled with 50 life changing questions to ask your parents or loved ones.
Follow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, or Facebook
Watch the video podcast
If you enjoyed this episode, please:
Subscribe and share this podcast episode with a friend
Leave us a 5-star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify
Consider booking Vanessa for a speaking engagement, Mental Health Masterclass, or Diversity & Inclusion Leadership Workshop for your organization
Prefer to read instead? We’ve got you.
Full Interview:
Vanessa Shiliwala: We are the least represented group in the C-suite and that's a problem. Whether it's in tech or Fortune 500, women of color do want to rise up in that world.
Nancy Luong: It's a team effort to break that bamboo ceiling and to move up and to have that support, and that acknowledgement and accountability. Like if they don't know about the bamboo ceiling, then how are we gonna move up? So it's working together with our allies and other AAPI people in our companies or organizations or communities to really be able to break things.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's Nancy Long, a senior marketer in tech, and author of How We Got Here Journal. Nancy is a digital program manager at Salesforce and co-president of AsiaPacForce. She's also been recently crowned Miss Southern California 2023. In her own words, Nancy is proud to be bringing diversity into this space and redefining beauty, not only because she is AAPI, but not the size zero woman or Asian woman traditionally associated with beauty standards.. She's someone who clearly values allyship with other women, other Asian Americans, and perhaps most importantly, people who are unlike her in age, race, generation, values or upbringing. In this episode, we talk about why allyship is the key to breaking the bamboo ceiling and glass ceiling, how genuine conversations can help heal intergenerational trauma with immigrant parents, and busting money and success myths in a “Bling Empire” world.
We talk about the importance of mental health for men, and why her struggles to connect with her emotionally distant dad inspired her to write How We Got Here Journal - and how gratifying it is to “see the walls come down” in their relationship.
Hey everyone. It's Vanessa. Welcome to Thrive Spice, a podcast centered on the Asian American mental health experience while navigating career, family, wellness, and social empowerment. I'm your host Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala, a business leader and entrepreneur mother of two, and award-winning AAPI and mental health advocate.
Join me as I invite diverse business and political leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators to share their real raw mental health journeys, and practical advice on how they found their Thrive Spice: the joy that comes from finally owning our identity, power and worth. Please follow me @thrivespice on Instagram for videos and more mental health tips.
We're also on Facebook. Send me a DM or voice note. I wanna hear from you! And if you prefer to watch your podcasts, please check us out on YouTube or Instagram @thrivespice. The link is in the show notes. Lastly, don't forget to subscribe. All right, let's get ready to unpack some feelings and spill the tea.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Thrive Spice podcast. Our guest here today is Nancy Luong. Nancy is a senior analyst at Salesforce with a background of 15 plus years in digital marketing experience. She's a proud first generation daughter to Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants. Nancy is a Long Beach local, and a graduate of CSULB, who is now a successful Fortune 500 senior marketer, financial content creator, keynote speaker, university educator, and bestselling published author.
She believes everyone has a story and has created the How We Got Here Journal for you to tell your story. The journal is filled with 50 life changing questions to ask your parents or loved ones.
So thank you so much, Nancy, for joining us here today on Thrive Spice. We're so excited to have you on. Um, It's been a long time coming. And I've loved the dialogue that we've been having over the past few months about your journey and mine. I'd actually love to share with our listeners more about your journey and your background. What inspired you to write How We Got Here?
Nancy Luong: You know, I'm so happy that there's been so much attention on Asian Americans and just everything going on. And I think during the pandemic I was seeing, that people were connecting in different ways in a huge way.
That I think it's important for us to connect us with our parents and loved ones that raised us. And there's so many stigmas that we've had being Asian Americans that I feel like we just had to break down the barriers and getting to know our parents' generational patterns have been passed down. And knowing how they have grown up, has really taught me why they are the way they are. And ultimately how I am and who I am.
So it's been really important for me to learn about my family's history to kind of figuring out who I am. And go from there and shift the things that aren't as valuable as I used to think that they were growing up. And I think that definitely changes as an adult.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow. I love that um, framework in terms of really looking at the way that we interact with our parents and understanding ourselves better. And I think the pandemic really caused a lot of us to kind of take a deeper look at the relationships in our lives and how we interacted with family. I think oftentimes as children of immigrants, we have these complicated relationships with our parents, especially our dads.
Nancy Luong: Yes.
Vanessa Shiliwala: How have you come to see or understand your parents differently throughout the years, or, you know, after you wrote this book? Is there a particular exercise or writing prompt from How We Got Here that inspired any kind of breakthrough in your own relationship with your parents?
Nancy Luong: Yeah definitely. I've heard so many stories of so many Asian Americans, and just in general people having, an odd relationship with their dad, you know. And I think especially in the Asian culture it's so common. Because for instance like my dad, growing up he's Chinese and grew up Chinese culturally.
And he had such a wall up, and I never really saw any emotions from him. And he definitely did not know how to communicate with us daughters. I think like, you know, lack of um, showing emotion in terms of, you know. Like, I think most Asians don't really say, I love you. Like hugging is like a huge thing, that's odd. Like if you hug, it's like - Ah! Why? you know
Vanessa Shiliwala: What happened?
Nancy Luong: I don't know if you can relate, but I feel like.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure.
Nancy Luong: It's just so many things. And so with my dad, it was really hard for me for three decades until I was 30. I was like, we didn't really talk that much and when we did it was awkward and it was just like always a wall up. And then I wanted to create this relationship with him and I saw how much it impacted me in so many ways to have this weird dynamic with him. And so once I started figuring out like, learning about his history. It made so much more sense of why he was so hard or acted that way.
It's because how his parents raised him, and how he was the oldest Chinese son and had to always be strong and never was taught to cry or show any vulnerability. And asking these questions, at first it was uncomfortable for him. Because, you know, he's not used to communicating in general. And so to go in the deeper connection was a little uncomfortable in the beginning.
But, just like anything that's why therapy's so important as well. When you start just letting it out and talking, you see the walls come down. And because I think so many parents aren't asked these questions, it's like - Oh, oh, you wanna know about me? Like - This is interesting. And once they start talking, it kind of like, just the energy is different. And I think I started seeing his walls come down and so we were able have dialogues.
And even today we just started talking about mental health, like, it was men's mental health, um, last month. And learning so much about how he struggled with his mental health growing up, taught me so much more of like - Wow there's so much depth into Asian men.
And once you tap into it, you'll realize how soft, I mean just like people in general are, and I think it makes an impact on how we are. Because it's like - Okay, I see this isn't had nothing to do with me, it had to do with you, you know. With how you were acting and how you raised me. And it there's so much empathy and compassion that goes into it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's so powerful to hear how these kind of seemingly like, you know, small, innocent questions can actually, really change the dynamic between generations. And I can definitely relate. I mean, my dad also was like, I remember a lot of my childhood was like - Oh, you're too sensitive, stop crying, you got so many emotions.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Um, you know, I barely, if ever really saw my dad cry, I think the only time was like when his father died. I think that's the only time I can remember. And then um, you know, being married to a South Asian man, it's like the same thing culturally. There's just not this encouragement of showing emotions.
It's kind of seen as a sign of weakness and we see this kind of getting passed down, from generation to generation. And it's really interesting because I feel like, it brings us closer to our parents and it allows us to have a different perspective as adults. Where we didn't have that as children, because we didn't see them as human in a way.
Because they were this kind of, um, you know, power figure or, you know, authority figure where we didn't really question it necessarily. But I think that this is such a kind of loving, caring way of questioning and of deep understanding and, actually like having some empathy for our parents. As a parent now I'm like - Wow, I don't know how they did it, it's so hard. And I definitely have a renewed sense of empathy for my own parents.
Nancy Luong: Yeah, definitely. I think it's important to do that, because it's like we can't change people and we can't blame people. But, once you start taking accountability of your own actions and also having that compassionate empathy makes life so much easier, you know?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-Hmm
Nancy Luong: Cause it's out of our control, but we can understand or try to, and I think it just makes life easier.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, that's such a good point. I think kind of taking that control back in a way.
Nancy Luong: Mm-hmm
Vanessa Shiliwala: But doing it in a really loving way in a caring way, I think it's so powerful. Have any of your like readers or people who've bought the book reached out to share their own stories of how it changed their relationship with their parents or family?
Nancy Luong: Yeah, and it's so beautiful when people do, you know, because I think like a lot of women I sometimes have, I still do have imposter syndrome. And I'm like - Did I write this? Did I do this right? Or is this, you know? And so when I hear feedback and I welcome all feedback. Cause I do wanna know, you know, um, what people think of it or like how their experiences are.
And it's so nice for my own colleagues and my work and the leaders, even at my work have been so supportive and people outside of work of hearing how it's changed. And, you know, I think it's such a great tool to have. Because it's not like, where randomly be like - Hey mom, or dad, or grandma or grandpa, uncle, whoever.
Here's a question it's like - What?! Like Asians are gonna be like - What the heck are you? What, what? You have something like - Hey, I got this book and ask questions in it. Let me, I wonder, like report some stuff. It makes it a bit more like safe, you know, it's easier and safe and it's so nice to hear people's experiences.
You know, it's changed so many people's lives, which is amazing of, you know, having communication or even just, it's everything from, you know, having all these stories that they've learned to just even breaking down a barrier or even communicating.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Totally.
Nancy Luong: Just that little part. And if that makes a change, then that's great enough already, you know, and the rest will come.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure, for sure. I think to that point, we didn't have, like, we didn't know how to have any of these kinds of conversations with our parents. And so having that framework as a guide and kind of like - It's in this book and we're just going through this exercise. I think makes it, um, definitely a lot more palatable. And, you know, thank you for giving that to our community.
I think that's so wonderful and generous. How did that come to be? Like, you know, I, everyone has their own kind of relationship with they're doing personally. But then how did it come to be - Okay, I'm gonna share this book with the world.
Nancy Luong: Yeah. So once I started seeing, um, so for myself, when I started seeing how much it's changed me to learn about my parents. And, you know, in a way forgiving them, like, you know, forgiving so many things.
I think being an adult, you don't have control of a lot of things, right? Like for me, I'm a control freak. And I'm less than now. Because it's like, there was so much chaos as a child. So like as an adult, you're like kind of like comfort zone is like controlling everything. And the thing is like with other people you can't do that.
Like, I can't change my parents, but I can learn how to understand them. And the more I did, the more, it helped me just have peace with so many things. Like, for instance, like, okay, my dad was so strict growing up, he didn't show much love. But I can't change that. What I can change is understanding, like why like - Okay, I get it.
His parents never showed that and he didn't know how to express that to us. Especially as females and as you know, young ladies and girls. And then having that changed so much. And then I started seeing people pass away. Like all of my friends' parents were passing away during the pandemic. And I did, I felt like life is so short, you know. And a huge regret I kept hearing is - I wish I talked to my parents more, I wish I knew them more, I wish I had stories I knew about them. Whether they had great relationships or relationships or not. So I, you know, came with this idea like - Hey, you know, I've been kind of doing this with my parents and it's helped me, maybe it'll help one other person. So it started out as creating it for my friends.
Like maybe my friends will like this. And then I saw, you know, maybe this can help other people, you know, and, and as a bigger scale, and I hope it does. And just at least sheds light on communication in general. You know, like having that, just that change is so important.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know about you, but I also grew up in kind of like a multilingual household. So, you know, sometimes like we've just literally never heard some of the, you know, phrases in our native language. Like I've never heard some of these words in Chinese or in Mandarin Chinese and stuff.
And so I think that there is also this kind of element of like reclaiming and, rewriting that narrative about who our parents are and who we are. And I think that you mentioned, you know, forgiveness. And I do believe that is so freeing. And to your point about control, um, yeah, especially in the pandemic, you know, none of us felt like we had any control over anything.
And so it can be a really, you know, dizzying, um, disorienting experience. But then to have that sense of kind of control back in terms of, okay I can actually turn this around and facilitate intergenerational healing. Even though there is trauma here. There's a lot of trauma, especially with children of immigrants.
Like we all have it and it's a very collective experience in many ways. But it's really nice to, to have that healing process you made available. So thank you so much for that. I wanna switch gears a little bit. And you also have a TikTok and Instagram account called finance hacks, which talks about anything from $5 sushi hacks to calculating your net worth and ways to optimize your investment portfolio.
I love that you're normalizing financial literacy. This is so important. And just talking about what is oftentimes a taboo topic, which is money. Um, culturally, it's a loaded topic for Asian Americans. We love money, we want prosperity, um, we want more of it, but we're also big savers and we can be conservative in some ways.
And I know in some Asian communities, there's also this preference for cash and maybe a distrust for banks and other institutions. So I'm curious when it comes to money. What shaped your values and perspectives on money as you were growing up? And what did you learn about money from it's value to how it was spent or saved? Or how does it impact your mindset today?
Nancy Luong: Yeah, this is such a great question. I mean, I have, so growing up, I didn't grow up with a lot, so my parents were immigrants. We grew up with little money. I, you know, just like a lot of Asian kids, we were like the ones that look like we stand out in general being Asian and then to not having much.
You look like that as well. Like not having the brand names, having hand me downs, all that. And so I always grew up kind of being uncomfortable, you know. Cause one I knew, I feel like my parents were so resilient with not having a lot of money. But they would work so hard to try, you know, their best to provide for us and especially to, um, set us up to go to college.
And so, um, how I valued money back then is like, I knew the value of money so well. Because I was like at my parents' businesses, I knew that we didn't have a lot. So we can spend a lot. Like for an example, I'm not, I knew I couldn't ask my parents for things because I'm like, we just don't have it.
And I don't wanna even ask or put them in a position where they felt bad because I knew the answer's gonna be no. So that leaked into my adulthood of that uncomfortability was my drive to save money and to invest and to have my own money. Cause I never wanted that feeling again of not having those options.
And so I think that when I was an adult, I was like - Okay, I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna make money, I'm gonna save money. And I, if I want something I'm gonna be able to spend on there. But at the same time, I have such a, um, A lack mindset in my early like twenties, where it's like, I have to save, save, save.
And that's how Asians are. Always you save everything, like you said, cash, like you, like, Asians are not great at investing unless it's like houses or, you know, like real estate. But I don't think, you know, like S&P index funds or, you know, other, um, stocks and things like that. I don't think like that's how Asians tap into it's mostly like houses or, um, or just hoarding all their money.
So one are the two or both. Um, so, um, so yeah, so that is the mindset I had. And then, so after I was able to save a lot of money, I learned about investing. And that was really through the internet and like reading books of, you know, it's good to invest in, you know, 401ks and, um, index funds and things that can grow passive income that you can have.
And so these things I don't feel like I learned from my parents, but I learned later on. Because I think the immigrant mindset is like save, save, save. And like, make sure you have like a safety net and all these things. So I had to shift that mindset in my late twenties and then also in my thirties I started learning like an abundance mindset, you know. Like we can have whatever we want and we're able to do that.
But I always think that my number one rule is living in within your means. I think like that is such a huge thing that people get confused about with like abundance and living in your means. I mean, I can talk about this for hours so, you know, like let me know specifically. But I think that it's important to live within your means and not to compare, but also know like there is money out there that, you know, you can have and get and not feel guilty for it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, thank you for bringing up that kind of tension between abundance mindset and living within your means. Cause I actually, you know, struggle with that too. Like what does that mean specifically? And I also can definitely relate to kind of growing up more poor. My parents also, you know, were immigrants and we were on food stamps.
And they were still in college when they had me. So, um, you know, they didn't have a lot. And I grew up not having much and kind of understanding that, you know, we had to reuse everything. That you know, you didn't throw things away carelessly and, you know, Even being able to shop at a store that was like TJ max or like a discount store was actually like a privilege.
That was like a special thing, because it meant I wasn't actually wearing like hand me downs from someone else's kids in the community. And I always say like - Immigrants are the original eco warriors. Cause we know how to like reuse stuff and we never throw anything away, we're very sustainable.
Like, I remember we got this dog and we didn't ever buy pee pads for the puppy. Like we just had like newspapers and we just like reuse those. And, um, just, everything was kind of very thoughtful in a way. But you don't really appreciate it till you're older.
And we never used a tailor, like my mom comes from like a long line of seamstresses. So anytime like we needed a costume or you know, a hem fixed or something, like we would do it ourselves. And my mom taught me how to sew and stuff. So there was this very kind of like survivalist instinct about like - Okay, you're self-sufficient, you don't need anybody else.
Is there like a money saving family tradition or a sustainable habit at home that you can distinctly remember and that you still do today?
Nancy Luong: Oh, there's so many things exactly what we said, right? Like I still save all like the, to go boxes.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes.
Nancy Luong: Um, the containers and all that like
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Nancy Luong: As Tupperware and all these things. Um, but yeah, I think that a huge part is that, you know, it's more like the mindset. Like I think growing up, my parents were always like, you know, and that's what leads that scarcity mindset to me of like,
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure.
Nancy Luong: We have to save, we have to keep saving, you know. And at some point it's like, your money is, which is a great technique to have yes. You should save money. But there's a balance as well. And I think like fighting that balance took me into my thirties, um, to do. Because it's like, you know, you go from exactly what you said, survival mode for so long.
Like you're, you're completely fine at some points where you're like, you don't even need to be in survival mode. But I was still in survival mode for up until me a few years ago. And so of what I thought like - Hey, it's okay. Like, it's okay to spend and invest and do the things you enjoy. And, and so I think, um, a huge part of, you know, seeing my parents like of, um, to answer your question is, is that seeing them save so much. Is, uh, something that leaked in so hard that I had to really change that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. And I think that's so universal for a lot of us in the Asian American community where we, you know, you practice what you saw growing up. And to your point, there is definitely something great about it. It's great to be frugal and practical. But then there's such a mental health cost too, to living in that constant scarcity and lack mindset that you mentioned. Where you just you're literally limited by your own mindset.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: And so I'd love to like, hear a little bit more about that particular transition point for you. Kind of going from scarcity to abundance. You know, I'm sure it wasn't overnight. Was there something that, you know, helped you? Kind of cross that bridge? Or, you know, something that you kept in mind? .
Nancy Luong: Yeah. So once I started doing a lot of self work, um, I was reading a lot about law of attraction and manifesting and abundance and all that tied into money as well. If you think small, you're always in the live small in your head. If you can expand yourself and wanna grow, you know, you can.
And there will always be more to have and more to grasp, you know. And finding that balance was really hard for me, cause I was like - Okay, so do I save or can I spend or like what do I do? And a huge part is, letting go of a lot of mindset. For example: Like whenever I would get bills, I would be so stressed out.
I'd be like, oh my gosh, like the water bill, the electricity bill, you know, my taxes, um, like my property tax and all these things. And a mindset I started shifting was, having gratitude for these things, you know. Like things that are outside of my control. Like for example: Of course I need water and electricity.
I have to pay for my taxes. So instead of complaining about it, I start shifting it to gratitude. Like - Hey, I'm so thankful I can pay for water. I'm so thankful I have water. I'm so thankful that I can pay for this electricity for this light to be on. I'm grateful that I have this house where I am paying this property tax.
And even today gas being so crazy, I choose to not go that route. Which I can, I can be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe it's $7 a gallon. Which I get like it is, that is insane. But I'm like, you know what, at least I can drive. I don't drive that often. I'm so thankful I can walk in other places, because I don't have control over that.
So it's like, things I don't have control over, I try to find gratitude in that. And the things that I can't like, if I'm complaining about something, then that's the whole other issue. Of like, you shouldn't be spending money on things that, you know, are gonna cost too much or outta your means.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, that's such an important unlock.
I think gratitude is really the key to kind of turning that on it's, um, head when we're kind of stuck in that mindset of lack and scarcity. So thank you for sharing that. I think that's such a, just evergreen tip for, you know, really kind of switching into that abundance mindset. And kind of retaking control of our own approach to what's going on in the world.
With so many kind of like doomsday events happening. And, um, it can feel really depressing sometimes. So being able to shift that into gratitude and abundance is really just a, not just a survival tactic, but really allows us to, to thrive.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Um, speaking of like, doomsday events with inflation and interest rates rising and NFT prices crashing and, you know, warnings of a possible recession on the horizon. There's a lot of collective anxiety and stress about money. Um, especially with pandemic, you know, spending, saving, buying homes or cars, et cetera.
So, what do you recommend we do to kind of manage the mental health impacts of the financial crisis or economic factors that are seemingly out of our control?
Nancy Luong: Yeah, so we can only control what we can control, you know. And I think that's a huge thing in life. Like what, what I've learned is, I cannot control external things.
I can change things or shift things, which is in my control. And of course I can always make impact by, you know, um, contributing my energy in other ways. But for the finance parts it's, it's really looking, I think, first and foremost, what you're spending on in your lifestyle, you know. Inflation, yes. Things are going up.
I see it. Of course, we all see it, you know. But it's, it's what we can control in a huge part is living, I talk about living in your means. But even with this inflation, seeing where you can pull back so that you're not stressed out.
So for instance, if you used to go out to eat a lot, or if you're spending money on food, you know. That which yes, it is a necessity to eat and all that. But you can see where it can pull back and make, you know, meals that are more affordable, you know.
And you can see how you can instill a healthy way that doesn't ruin your lifestyle. But looking at places where you can pull back financially, is really important I think during this time. Because yeah, we can't control the prices going up. But we can control, you know, where our spending is and looking at that.
In terms of, you know, for me, I have a lot of investments in my portfolio, all these things. I just leave it in there, there's nothing I can do. I know it's gonna go back up. It's just best to not look at it. Like,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Nancy Luong: For me, I'm I'm just not gonna look at it. Or if I do, I will tell myself - Hey, will go back up and not worry about it. But if we keep stressing on things that we can't control, it doesn't do any good for us.
Like if I'm like - Oh my gosh, the food's so expensive! It is okay, so what can we do? Like look at the solutions and look at what you can do in your control to pull back on money and in your investments and things like that. I don't stress about it. I think it's okay, like investments go up and down. So you can either make a decision and pull things out if you want to, which I wouldn't suggest. But, you know, but I, I try really not to look at things because it's like day to day, how's that gonna affect me?
And if I do, which the old me would've. That's gonna bring so much stress, it's just, that's not necessary at all.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Nancy Luong: So yeah, those are the things I would do.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Right. Now thank you, that that's, um, just super practical. And I think it's one of those like obvious things that, you know, people sometimes miss a lot. And I'm curious, you know, in our culture we see, you know, with shows or movies, like crazy rich Asians and bling empire. I don't know if you watched that.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: But there's like, you know, this, um, particularly in the Asian American kind of experience. There's still this glorification of prosperity and success and being rich. And of course, like, you know, very synonymous with the American Dream as well. So I'm curious like, if we do need to kind of hold back in terms of spending. Like what are some ways that we can still experience joy, still experience happiness, still feel successful? Without necessarily like shelling out lots of money.
Nancy Luong: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I do not think money brings joy or happiness. What it brings though is financial security, comfortability, peace of mind. And yes, of course you can be happy. Because people will be like - Well, I wanna go to Italy. Like, that's gonna make me happy. Yes, agreed.
However, in the long run, you know, those are all things that's, it's instant gratification. Like a lot of things.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Nancy Luong: But in the long run, what is gonna make you happy is really your internal self and your work and the things that bring you to joy. And that doesn't necessarily have to be money. So I would say huge thing is your self care, you know.
How you treat yourself day to day, working out, eating healthy, journaling, reading, taking walks, taking a bath. You can do all these things that make you happy. A huge part I would say is to not compare. So I watched all those shows, you know, that everyone is talking about.
And we can easily compare ourselves to those people. And we can compare ourselves to our peers and people on Instagram that everyone's in Europe right now, right? On social media you're like - Why I'm at home? But it is very difficult to do. And this is something that I don't do. I do not compare myself to others. Because what I find as rich and prosperity is not the same as others.
Even like my two sisters, they have a really good sized house, nice cars, all these things. And they deserve it and they work hard. But that's not how I wanna live. And that's okay. And so, I am so okay with that, which I'm so grateful for. Because if I did do that, like those aren't even things I want. So I could easily be like - Oh, I should have a nice car, I need to like, have a bigger house. But I'm like, I'm really happy with what I have.
And I like things that are different from them, you know? Or anyone like, I personally like experiences or things like that. And so, you know, what I find joy in is gonna be different from someone else. And we have to remember too, you never know how someone's life is, you know. You see these shows that have all these things.
First off, it comes from old money and generational wealth. Which is completely fine. No hate on that. I'm just saying, you know. Like, so it's the less than 1% you're seeing. But again, you don't know what's happening behind closed doors. And it's so important to find your inner peace and your inner joy and that doesn't necessarily equal money.
So there's so many ways you can enjoy your life without that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I think that's so spot on. And it really speaks to a lot of the pressures of our society. Especially with social media where you can compare yourself to millions and billions of people's lives at the same time. And I think that's like the ultimate mental health fitness level.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Is to like, not compare yourself to others. It's something I'm still working on. And I feel like, sometimes I've even had people who have like, told me like - Oh, they compare themselves to me. And I'm like - Wow, like your perspective of what my life was, was very different than my reality at that time.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: So as you said like, you never know what someone's going through. And you know, we can't get caught up on all that stuff. And I love that you also said like money doesn't buy happiness. And I think that's something that, um, we've all had to kind of unlearn and we're still unlearning as a community. Because we value success and stability and money.
And then we find ourselves perhaps in those positions and then we're wondering like - Well, why does this feel empty? Why am I still not happy?
Nancy Luong: Right.
Vanessa Shiliwala: And for me I would add to that is, relationships and the quality of relationships is truly, currently my deepest source of joy.
Nancy Luong: Yes.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Um, whether it's with my family, my children, some friends that have had, you know, some long term friendships and some newer friendships. That brings me so much joy that I cannot find anywhere else.
And so I think the pandemic has forced us to really get back to basics in a way. And I think it's a good thing because we're realizing that yeah, the world can be crashing down behind us. But we don't need as much as we thought we did.
Nancy Luong: Yeah, definitely. And I agree relationships are so important and you know, one of my favorite quotes is comparison is the theme of joy.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yep.
Nancy Luong: And it totally is. Because when you compare, you're never gonna feel good enough. Because once you hit whatever you're trying to get, you're gonna compare yourself with someone else that has more and then it's just like a never ending rat race. So it's just so important to ask yourself what your intentions are like - What makes you happy? That's the most important.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure . Speaking of like the rat race. I know that you work as an Asian woman in tech. And I know it's an amazing industry but also kind of notorious for being tough for women of color, minorities, underrepresented groups. And so, it's also often focused on achieving a lot of these like metrics and KPIs. So how do you measure your own personal success and mental health and happiness in your career?
Nancy Luong: You know in my twenties, I measured success by my title and how much I was making.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course.
Nancy Luong: And that was the most important. I was like - I wanna go up the corporate ladder, I wanna make money, I wanna do all these things. Now in my thirties, I'm more like - What's making you happy, you know? And I feel there's some graph. I know there's a graph out there. That was like, boy, and money and you know, whatever.
There's like a cross.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Nancy Luong: But how I measure success now, is by joy and happiness. And that doesn't equal more money or a higher title that equals how I feel day to day about my work and where I'm at financially. But also how I am mentally, you know, am I enjoying my job? Am I giving back, am I contributing?
Am I doing things that I enjoy? That is how I measure it now. And I think that there's a point in your life where you'll hit that. And some people will never do and that's fine too. They're just like climbing, climbing, and that's great. But for me, it's really that balance of happiness, joy, having money as well.
Like, you know, I think that's important as much as, I do think money doesn't buy you happiness and joy. And I really believe that. But I still need to pay my bills.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: You know, for real, I love it. Of course. Many of us are familiar with that term of bamboo ceiling or the glass ceiling. Whether it's in tech or fortune 500, as well as like microaggressions or casual racism.
So what do you recommend for fellow women of color or underrepresented minorities? who do want to make an impact or rise up in that world while standing up for themselves?
Nancy Luong: I think it's so important to join, if you can any, um, ERGs or any organizations at your work. So currently I'm part of AsiaPac force. Which is It's an Asian organization at Salesforce.
And it's so important to work with like-minded people, people that have the same culture. But also what's great about it is, there's allies. So we definitely need the allies that are the most important, well, not most important, but as important as we are in it. Because they're the ones that are, you know, going to be helping us as well.
It's a team effort to break that bamboo ceiling and to move up and to have that support. And also to have that acknowledgement and accountability. Like if they don't know about the bamboo ceiling, for instance. Then how are we gonna move up? So it's working together as well with our allies and other AAPI people in our companies or organizations or communities to really, be able to break things.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm.
I love that. I think that's so key. Because when you're in that position, it can be easy to feel isolated or kind of slip into that lack mindset that you were speaking about earlier. And then you know, we're stronger together. So when we join in a community and we advocate for each other and we also raise our representation.
And also, you know, as you mentioned the validation of just
Nancy Luong: yeah
Vanessa Shiliwala: just being seen like - Hey, this is happening. We are the least represented group in the C-suite and all across the board and that's a problem. And so having that acknowledged is just something that, you know, easily 5 - 10 years ago, that wasn't the case in the work environment.
So I think that it's really been inspiring to see that mindset shift. In corporate America and across the world. Especially in tech as well. So thank you for being part of that organization. I, myself had my, some of my fondest memories are when I was also co-chair of an ERG and it really brought me a lot of joy.
Being able to be a part of that change and be in community with so many like-minded people as you said.
Nancy Luong: Yeah, definitely. And exactly when you said, you know, you felt alone. It's so nice you have a place where you truly feel like you authentically belong and
Vanessa Shiliwala: mm-hmm
Nancy Luong: I think that's really important.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure. I think belonging is one of those things that's been kind of overlooked in corporate culture up until recently. And so it's nice to see that kind of brought to the forefront and having people really investigate on a systemic basis, how do we facilitate better belonging?
Because it's, you know, better retention and better culture. And I think that it's wonderful to be a part of that movement. I wanna switch gears a little bit and just kind of help our listeners get to know a little bit more about you. What's your thrive spice? You know, a daily habit or routine that helps kind of ground and affirm you or reclaim peace and joy in your daily life.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
So I like to take walks and I think that's, it's so important to like go outside and have fresh air and take a walk. And I like listening to podcasts or, uh, just listening or talking to someone that I, you know, like my mom or talking to a friend. I think it's so nice to have that therapy of just time for yourself and getting that movement is so peaceful.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Amazing. I'm a big walk fan as well, and clearly we're both fans of podcasts so.
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's awesome. Do you or your family members have any superstitions or funny sayings around money or prosperity?
Nancy Luong: Yeah, so my family always likes to, um, during you know, like most holidays we get with the red envelope. And we always like having that for good luck. And I think that's so important to like, just take a minute and just have gratitude in that way.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure. For sure. Um, what's your favorite comfort food?
Nancy Luong: My favorite comfort food is, uh, my mom's cooking. And I need to start learning the recipes, I think. But I feel like I'm not gonna make it right. But it's always like that extra touch of not measuring things.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Nancy Luong: Um, my mom makes a great Bun Rieu which is a crab noodle soup, it's Vietnamese. And another dish that I love is called Thit Kho, it's kinda like a pork spare rib. That's Vietnamese as well.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh yeah. Mom's cooking is always the best. And I, I hear you on the not measuring things. Like so many times I would try to ask my mom for a recipe and she would just be like - You just put some in there.
And I'm like - What's some?
Nancy Luong: Yeah.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Especially if it's like, you know, a vinegar or something that if you put too much of like, it's gonna ruin the, the whole dish. But luckily, you know, with enough trial and error, you can kind of figure it out. But I totally, totally get that. What was the last moment that brought you joy or hope?
Nancy Luong: I recently met up with an old friend and I hadn't seen her since high school. So like, you know, over two decades. And it's so nice when you can talk to someone about mental health and about life and all these things. And when you connect with, like you said, other relationships. When you connect with people that you can talk to, it really brings me so much joy.
Like just connecting with friends and my family. It's like, that gives me pure joy of like having those types of conversations that you can't normally have. So it's nice when you have those type of people you know, and you can just be yourself with. And that really brings me pure joy. The times where I can truly feel like myself.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. I love that. Friends are such a great mirror for parts of ourself that we just maybe forgot about or, you know, in times of need. We forget that we're capable. And the people who've seen that we were able to overcome or know different sides of ourselves.
That's so helpful. Especially if we're kind of feeling down or spiraling or doubting ourselves. We all struggle with the imposter syndrome, you know, here and there. Lastly, do you have like a favorite prompt or question from your book that you recommend to everybody?
Nancy Luong: Yeah. Um, I love asking people what they are most proud of.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm.
Nancy Luong: So it's really nice to hear what people are proud of. Because a lot of times I think that, especially in the Asian, um, community. It's hard for people to say what they're proud of.
And it's, it is nice for them to take a second to take a step back. And say it out loud and for you to hear like - Wow, that's amazing you've done all those things. And it gives them a chance to their reflect on their life. And, you know, have that safe space of sharing.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm. That is so powerful. I think that, for a lot of us, you know, children of immigrants or Asian Americans, a lot of times we still deal with not feeling proud of ourselves at times. Because we didn't have that kind of abundance around being proud of ourselves.
It was always like - Okay, get straight A's or this other kid is doing this. And, you know, this attitude of striving constantly. And so, um, kind of taking that pit stop and really validating what we're proud of. I think it is so powerful. So thank you, Nancy, again.
This was such an illuminating conversation. Thank you for your contributions to our community. It's so important. It's really the life's work that I hope you are also proud of. So thank you again.
Nancy Luong: Yes, you're so welcome. I'm so glad we had the opportunity to talk today.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course.
Nancy Luong: And making changes
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes! All right. Take care, Nancy.
Nancy Luong: Thank you.