AAPI Heritage Month Celebration: Top 8 Mental Health Lessons from AAPI Leaders

Podcast Episode 18

The best mental health tips from AAPI Leaders, creators and activists, including how to navigate anxiety and depression, self-care, imposter syndrome, social media, body image issues, and hate crimes. PLUS: Thrive Spice was featured on Apple Podcasts' home page for the Best of AAPI Heritage Month! Vanessa celebrates Mental Health Awareness Month and the 1 year anniversary of Thrive Spice, and our mission of normalizing mental health for the Asian American and Asian diaspora across the world.

Follow us on Instagram for mental health tips and resources, or email Vanessa for Mental Health Workshops and Speaker/Event inquiries.

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AAPI Heritage Month Anniversary Special: Top 8 Mental Health Lessons from AAPI Leaders

Welcome to Thrive Spice, a podcast centered on the Asian-American experience of navigating career, family, mental health, and social empowerment. I'm your host, Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala. Join me as I invite diverse business and political leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators to share their real stories and practical advice on how they found their Thrive Spice: the joy that comes from finally owning our identity, power, and worth.

 Hey everyone. It's me, Vanessa.

Vanessa: Thank you so much for listening today. This episode has a very special place in my heart as we're celebrating our 1 year anniversary of Thrive Spice, and our mission of normalizing mental health for the Asian American and Asian diaspora across the world.

It's been one year since I started Thrive Spice. I can't even believe it. So happy birthday to us. The past few weeks have been such an exciting blur with AAPI Heritage Month, Mental Health Awareness Month, but also with recent disturbing events, like the Buffalo shootings and Laguna Beach shootings here in the U.S.

I know our community is in need of some light and joy and healing from this vicious cycle of trauma. So I'm going to share a few exciting updates, reintroduce myself, for those of you who are new to the podcast. And share my top eight lessons on mental health and social empowerment that I learned from AAPI leaders over the past year. Why eight? Well, because it's a lucky number in Chinese culture.

We're going to talk about everything from boundaries, self care therapy, imposter syndrome, and negative self-talk intergenerational trauma and healing, body acceptance and body image. We'll talk about how to do social media breaks the right way; how movement is medicine and rest is resistance, and how we can immerse ourselves in radical joy as an antidote to hate.

I'm also going to share something that I've never shared before in public, which is my experience being the survivor of a hate crime. And if you want to skip right to that, it's all the way at the end. But I do ask that you listen to the whole episode because it is a deeply personal one. And yeah, it just took me a long time to share. As always, we want to hear from you. Please feel free to find us on Instagram @thrivespice, send us a DM or a voice memo. You can also email me at info@thrivespicemedia.com. We always welcome feedback, and would just love to hear from you! I also have a really exciting announcement. I want to share with you the end about some super incredible projects coming up. So I would love if you could stay with me till the end.

 So to start us off. I got really exciting news. I discovered that Thrive Spice was actually featured on Apple Podcasts home page for AAPI Heritage Month under the Collective Bravery section, the first section of several categories of Asian podcasts. The podcast Proudly Asian was kind enough to tag us. Otherwise I seriously would have had no clue. I found out about probably 12 hours after they had posted it. And it was my kids’ bedtime, and I looked at my phone and I just started screaming. I was so excited. My two year old, who we've been potty training, promptly pooped her pants. I'm guessing out of excitement, I'd like to think. It was this perfectly imperfect, chaotic moment that really encapsulated the life of a podcaster and mom of two toddlers. And the next few days I could hardly sleep out of the excitement.

It's an incredible honor to be featured next to other API podcasters and leaders who I admire. And some we've been in the game for a lot longer. I'm incredibly thankful to each and every one of the guests who were brave and kind enough to share their own stories. And to everyone who supported me from friends, neighbors to family and strangers. The other thing that happened last a couple of weeks is I also gave my first mental health and AAPI identity workshop for the AAPI ERG (Employee Resource Group)at Teachable, which is a software company and tech platform for online courses and coaching services. The workshop was on cultivating Self-Love in Asian, AAPI and intersectional identities. But it was really about how to survive the mental load and thrive in a world that's been turned upside down.

 It was seriously the highlight of my week. I was filled with joy and healing from the experience of being able to share mental health myths and truths in the AAPI community, data around why it impacts our lived experience, and practical tips and advice for how to navigate our own mental health journeys.

Afterwards people reached out to thank me for creating a safe space for vulnerability, learning, and healing, and told me that they felt validated, informed, hopeful, and empowered. I was literally moved to tears when I was telling my husband about it later, because when I started this podcast a year ago, he told me that if I save one life, it will be worth it. I kept that impact KPI in mind so many times when I questioned why I contributed 40 plus hours of volunteer work for each episode, tried and learned over 10 different technologies to edit and produce podcasts and video clips, and got rejected and felt dejected many, many times. In all honesty, creating this podcast has been part of my own healing journey and my own mental health struggles.

There were definitely people who doubted or questioned what I was doing, including myself. That negative self-talk and imposter syndrome is real, but truly I am inspired by so many of your stories of resilience, grit, and joy.

So for those of you who don't know me, my name is Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala. I'm the founder, host, and CEO of Thrive Spice Media. My background is in marketing. I have 15 years of experience working at a variety of companies from fortune 500 companies to tech and media startups. And I'm also the former co-chair of Avon Asian network, ERG employee resource group.

I was born and raised in Wisconsin where there weren't a whole lot of Asians around. We were truly the minority of minorities. I went to NYU, moved to New York city and graduated with honors with a degree in journalism and communications. But more importantly, I'm a first-generation Taiwanese-Chinese-American woman, wife of a first-generation Indian-American, mom of two interracial kids, daughter of immigrant entrepreneurs. And I'm also someone who. has struggled with mental health issues. I've had to figure out how to cope with mounting stress and anxiety and overcome perfectionism and negative self-talk throughout my life.

I've had postpartum depression. I'm a survivor of hate crimes and sexual assault. And I've experienced decades of systemic racism and sexism. So when I started this podcast, it was in response to the Atlanta spa shootings over a year ago, where eight people, six of whom were Asian women, were killed in a hate crime.

For the first time conversations about the inextricable interconnectedness of race and gender, when it came to women of color and Asian women, were being spotlighted in mainstream media. But it was also based upon my personal experience. I purposely interview people who are successful on paper and in their own right, and are breaking the bamboo ceiling and busting out of boxes to change the world, via reclaiming their power and existence and helping to do that for others.

But also to share that even the most successful, impactful, influential people that we admire also go through mental health struggles. Many of which you may not hear about, unless you really got to know them. My mission was to normalize the conversation on mental health, and empower Asian-Americans and AAPIs, in businesses, at home, and in their communities. In my research, I found Asians were three times less likely to seek mental health help than white folks and Asian women ages, 15 to 24, have the highest rates of suicide out of any other racial or ethnic group. AAPI men in the same age group are number two.

Asian women are also the least likely racial or ethnic group to enter the C-suite level at fortune 500 companies and Silicon valley tech companies. In a past life, I worked for an Asian American dating app as their Head of Marketing. And during that time I read the book Dataclysm by the founder of OkCupid, Christian Rudder, where he shared that based upon the data that OKCupid had collected, Asian women are statistically considered "the most desirable group" in online dating sites. I couldn't help but notice that sharp dichotomy between our stereotyped hypersexualization and submissiveness disguised as flattery and desire. And the fact that, in true positions of power, Asian women were absent. By the way, the book shared data that also placed Asian men and Black women as “the least desirable” gender and racial groups on OkCupid. These harmful and pervasive forms of bias impact economic, social, and cultural policy. It affects how we see ourselves, how the world sees us, and how technology and media are developed based on these assumptions.

So, what do we talk about here on Thrive Spice?

We talk about empowerment and representation, whether it's career, social issues, media, mental health, and wellness, family, parenting, and relationships. So if you're new here, welcome, we're so happy to have you join us. This is a safe space. Our goal is to promote social equity, diversity, and inclusion, and to represent the vast diversity of the AAPI or Asian American diaspora, as well as intersectional identities, when it comes to gender, sexuality, religion, ability, et cetera. That includes East Asian, South Asian, Southeast Asian. Multi-racial Asian and Pacific Islanders in the US, LGBTQIA+, all religions, all abilities. We have a global, Asian English speaking audience outside of the U.S. We have listeners from Canada, UK, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Philippines, and really all over the world. We have listeners in Germany, Malaysia, Japan, France, Italy, Brazil, Jamaica. Even Iraq, Mexico, Bangladesh. It's been incredible. It's just, it's just crazy. I don't even know how they found us, but it's truly a marvel of modern technology.

 Finally, before we jump in, I want to share a story about the healing power of representation. And I think part of the amazing part of AAPI month, is that it feels like finally, there's this world that exists where we actually see ourselves represented, if just for a month. And I think that there is something really powerful about that. So I want to share my own personal story of encountering that recently.

So recently I've just gotten back from Mom 2.0, which is a marketing and media conference and summit in Los Angeles, geared towards creators and brands. So first off, this was my very first solo trip in over two and a half years, and the first time I had left my kids at home since pre-pandemic, since my youngest daughter had been born. So it was a big deal.

But my husband and our babysitter held down the fort and managed to keep the kids alive and healthy. And I had the best time. I met some of the most incredible humans there and learn about everything from SEO to book publishing, to how much creators should charge for content partnerships to even NFTs. So one of the speakers during the podcasting session mentioned that Apple and Spotify were always looking for new, up and coming podcasts. And that maybe if I hunted people down on LinkedIn long enough, I might be able to get featured. So imagine my surprise when this feature on Apple podcasts' homepage for AAPI Heritage Month, seemingly dropped out of the sky. I hadn't reached out to anyone at Apple or Spotify. #manifestation, right? But back to mom 2.0. They also had some fantastic keynote speakers, including Francis Haugen, the whistleblower at Facebook.

But the one who really struck me was Valarie Kaur, activist, and author of See No Stranger. Her speech and presentation was incredible, but what really left an impression was her presence, how unapologetic and warm she was as she stood in her power and talked about everything from hate crimes to dal, to Sikh prayers to California wildfires and Encanto. I literally got goosebumps as I saw another Asian woman on the stage in front of hundreds of attendees. 95% of which were not Asian by the way. And here she was unapologetically herself, South Asian American, Sikh, a mom. The intersection of so many identities that did not have to be in conflict with each other.

 What I want to share here is: never underestimate the power of representation. And it doesn't have to just be on the movie screen or TV screen or on social media. It can be in a classroom, in the conference room, on a Zoom panel, or in your neighborhood. Seeing someone else who has a historically marginalized identity like yours step into their power can change you. It changes the way you see yourself. It changes the way others see you.

That is why it's so important for us to keep fighting for representation in every corner of the world.

 All right, let's get to it. The top eight lessons that I've learned over the past year on mental health from AAPI leaders. I truly believe in collective wisdom and sharing it with all of you.

I'm going to share some excerpts from some of our most popular episodes from Thrive Spice over the past year. The ones where listeners tell me that this really resonated with them. And. This is by no means an exhaustive list. Um, frankly, this was one of the hardest episodes for me to edit because there's so much wisdom and truth and power that's been shared on this platform. So thank you to all of my guests for being so generous with their collective wisdom and bravery.

 The first lesson on mental health is on boundaries. Boundaries are a self care practice in form of respect for you and others.

So the person that always resonates with me when I think about this in terms of boundaries is the interview from episode three of the podcast with Sakina Issa, who is a licensed family and marriage therapist and the co-founder of E L O. Minds, and also a mother of three.

Sakina says, you can say no nicely. But let's hear it from her.

Sakina Issa: In Asian families, there is a huge lack of boundaries. You know, do this for me, do that for me, you can't do this, you can do this. Like I'm scared to do that. You know?

And this personally for me, was so difficult to learn, but you can say no and be nice. so I was just like, what do

you mean? I can say, like, when I learned

that in therapy, I was like, Like, is this like a trick?

Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I find it doesn't get easier. You know, becoming a mother, as you go further down into your career, I'm sure as an entrepreneur, you're faced with situations where you're like, okay, do I say no? And then if you do say no, feeling compelled to offer a reason or explain yourself, or even apologize before even offering the reason. How do we get out of that?

Sakina Issa: Honestly, it was one of the things that took me the longest time to kind of navigate.

And it's really just about practice. I remember, like, my palms would sweat. I would be sweating. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so scared to say no, even though my, the reason is totally valid, you know? I remember one situation is I have, it was having my first kid, I was pregnant. I was going to school and I was working and somebody wanted me to host dinner.

And I was like, you know, these obligations are some obligations that we have in the Asian community. So it's like a party and you should host and this and that. And I was just like, you know, talking to my therapist and she's like, you can say no nicely, it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to yell at.

Even if they yell at you just say no and say it calmly and nicely, and I would practice, right? Like the greatest thing that also about therapy is you can role-play. And so I would role play with my therapist, like how to say no nicely and like what I need to do and how to calm my nerves, breathing exercises, because I am freaking out inside.

I'm like, I'm going to say no to...

Vanessa: like, are these my no pants? Like, yeah,

Sakina Issa: We're sitting there and at the moment got heated. Cause everyone's like, uh, excuse me. And I was like, I can't do that. Like I, and you know, I probably did say I'm so sorry, but I can't do it. Yeah.

Over the years, you know, that no has just become more strong.

Vanessa: Yeah, I think it's like a watershed moment. It's something I definitely had to learn as early as my twenties, working in the corporate world and discovering that, you know, sometimes people would mistake my kindness and, you know, take advantage of it or ask me to do more work.

 I found that I really had to do some self-reflection and. To me, the narrative that helped me was telling myself they're going to actually respect you more if you say no. And like you said, you can do it in a way that's courteous and professional and grounded in logic and facts. And, it was really a groundbreaking moment for me when I realized that part of what I was so afraid of was, you know, others disapproval, you know, disappointing people and.

You know, they would hate me or not want to work with me or something like that. And I think getting over that hurdle and recognizing that actually first and foremost, it's about respecting yourself, was so pivotal for me. Yeah.

Sakina Issa: And that's the thing, right? Like, uh, others will always take advantage of you because they need their needs to be met.

Right. And so whether it's intentional and sometimes it's. Yeah, they're just going to ask and if you say yes, they assume that you can do it right. Really thinking about you. And so when you don't think about yourself, that's when you get burned out and you know, your mental health really deteriorates. That's why it's so important to realize that they will think about themselves. And you should think a little bit about yourself too.

Yeah. And I think that's so at times antithetical to Asian culture that it's so hard for us. Right. Because we're just trained from an early age. Think about everybody else, make sure you're taking care of everybody else. Think of yourself.

Vanessa: Lesson number two. Negative self-talk is a form of imposter syndrome, perfectionism and scarcity mentality that blinds us to our true potential and worth. I am a recovering perfectionist, and I've found that perfection is a binary that holds us captive to two outcomes, only success or failure. In episode 13, the success trap with Lillian So ,who's the founder of SoFit

SF, an author life coach and healer, we talked about why self-deprecation or negative self-talk can sometimes feel like a comfort or crutch.

Lillian: It's almost so much easier to just kind of go into the self-loathing deprecating place. Feels so familiar, you know.

Vanessa: Yeah, I think it's, it feels familiar and safe for some of us because we feel like, oh, if I criticize myself first, no one can criticize me. And it's almost like a defense mechanism, but then we don't realize like, well, if I really own that awareness of myself and really own what I've accomplished, actually like people are going to see that.

And then. Things are going to come from me. But another thing I really had to learn was about positive self-talk because I think I was trained from years of just growing up in the Asian American community to think about the negative. Self-talk like, oh, how do I compare it to others? Or how would my parents criticize me even?

So it's really unlearning that. And so I would start to keep journals, right. Something negative. I thought about myself. Like I'm a bad mom because I blew up at my kid. And then on the opposite side, I would write I'm a good mom because I help provide for them. I dress them in the mornings. I teach them lessons about what's right and wrong and how to be independent.

They actually say they love me sometimes. So it was reframing and then embracing that two things can be true at once. And you can feel like you're not good enough. But you can also look at the other side of the coin and say, well, actually, here's what I am doing. Here's what I've learned. And here's what I've accomplished.

I turned to that particular journaling exercise. When I catch myself writing a story. That I know is not true. And I'm mired in that vicious cycle of negative self-talk. It's a great way to rewrite your story and write your own affirmations.

One of my favorite perspectives on imposter syndrome is drawing on the power of our ancestors and creating our own story.

 So the episode that comes to mind here is with Holly Raña Lim, who is the guest on episode four of the podcast. Holly is a campaign and leadership consultant with over 18 years of experience in community and electoral organizing. She's the founder and lead consultant at Holly Lim Strategies, which supports organizations on campaign strategy and supports BIPOC women and young adults. And she's facilitated workshops with none other than Michelle Obama.

Holly Lim: Part of my approach is similar to when I had just shared about creating, going back to that story of who am I, because my hope in people reflecting, who am I outside of all the roles that we feel really then helps to create a new narrative.

So yes, we might have this very vicious, two-sided stereotypes that are, that's very prevalent about Asian American women. And at the same time, we also have the power. To reclaim our own stories. Once you share that to say, Hey, I do not fit in those two stereotypes. I actually have this story and this is the story that you're going to remember me by.

So I think there's power in that. And I think that's one of the ways to address imposter syndrome is to reflect on your own story and to use that as. Heck yang bad-ass actually. And imposter syndrome is, is yes, it's, it's prevalent. I think, particularly for women and people of color, not just in politics, but everywhere.

I see it in all fields. There's this one documentary that includes AOC and on Netflix. And she's preparing for a debate against the incumbent. Who's been in that position for years. And I remember she was doing affirmations as she was preparing. And I think a lot of it does have to deal with ourself, talk, how we prepare to be in spaces and in rooms.

And so I think part of it is what is your story? Write that down. So you remember who you are again, if you go into a board room and you're the only woman and like there's sexism happening. Part of the influence could be like, you're going to forget who you are potentially in that space. And so if you have your own story that you remember have practiced at saying, this is the proposal we're going to go with this, right.

Or preparing with affirmations beforehand. I think that's really helpful. I also do this thing where I, I actually, part of my preparation is to ask my ancestors to help me and to be in the room with me. I love

Vanessa: I keep going, but I was like, oh, I just got goosebumps schools. I, I love that. And I think it speaks so much to.

Our heritage and how we value our family, but please continue.

Holly Lim: Yeah. Yeah. So part of my routine or the customs that I've developed, if I'm going into a room that I've never been in or into a role that like no one in my family has ever been in that maybe a woman of color has never been in. I wear my grandma's ring.

There's something that reminds me of, of someone in my family who has passed and say, Sam interviewing for a job that someone that looks like thee does not usually apply for that. So what I'll do is I will do that process of like, I'll wear my grandma's ring or the watch my uncle had given me when I was four it's like this Mickey mouse watch or something.

And then when I'm actually in this space, I imagined them coming into the room. And then that helps me a lot because you're not just that feeling you get when you're a leader sometimes, or if you're in a position that people like you have never been in before, it can be very isolating and it can be, it can make someone feel very alone.

And so when you bring your ancestors into a room where they have never been to, that's powerful is you're not alone. Yeah. And yeah, and you're, you're kind of just like a culmination of all of them too. So I think there's a lot of power in that and it's, it's really difficult to have imposter syndrome.

When you imagine that in that they're here with me, it's not just me. And they're coming with me. They're coming to a space where they've never been to before. So we're going to do this altogether. Preparing in those ways are, I think are very helpful, particularly in combating imposter syndrome. I go through it sometimes too.

It's a little challenging from time to time, but you got to find ways to remember again, who you are, remember your story and find the supports to help you get back on that.

Vanessa: I'm so moved by this because I think it really speaks to how an Asian culture we're taught to Revere. Our ancestors were we pay our respects to them and they are part of our stories.

And we carry that with us every single day. And it is so powerful to imagine it working for us in terms of bringing their energy with us into spaces where we might feel scared, where we might feel like we need to be brave in that moment. And the theme of your career is that you've never been alone because you've had the support of a community member or a mentor, or even your own self affirming thoughts, and then adding in a layer of your ancestors as protective energy.

And I think that's so powerful for us to just take a step back and evaluate when we are feeling isolated, as you were saying, because we're alone. And we have their energy and our spirit with us. And I do believe in the power of visualization and affirmations. I think it's really helped me in high performance situations.

And I actually, in my office, I have a scroll that my grandfather wrote for Meads Chinese calligraphy, and he actually wrote it the summer before he passed away from cancer. And my parents actually didn't find it for another. 10 plus years. And one day they were cleaning out the attic and they found this like rolled up scroll.

Cause he used to do a lot of calligraphy and it was addressed to me. And it was roughly translated. It says that in the ocean is where the dragons live and in the skies are where the cranes fly. You feel free to roam wherever you please. And then he addressed it to me and it can be interpreted in many different ways, but it's this like massive six foot scroll.

That's literally hanging above my screen right now as we speak. And I look at that every day and I'm going to be honest. Sometimes I felt overwhelmed by it. I was like, oh no, I'm letting him down. Like, you know what if I'm not like reaching my potential or something, but there's some times where I look at it and I think.

Uh, you saw me, I was eight years old at the time. Like somehow he saw in me that there was this potential that I could be something more than what others might've thought of me. And I think that's really given me the power to even try to reclaim my power at times when I felt kind of unsure in my journey.

Lesson number three.

I think the most important lesson that I've learned personally, is that prioritizing your mental health and asking for help does not make you weak or selfish.

Vanessa: In episode 11, I talked to Gregory Allan Datu Cendana, president and co-founder of can't stop. Won't stop consulting and author of be the boss now.

Greg: Even the ones you think that are the strongest or even the ones that you lean on the most need help too.

And the reality is we all need help. And the more that we can create conditions where folks can say, look, I need help and needing help is okay. And these are the types of resources that I use, or I would recommend to be able to get the help that you need, because once we help ourselves, we will be in stronger and better positions to help others.

These conversations aren't easy and that it takes a lot of mental and emotional and sometimes physical.

Yeah. Strength and energy from me to do this.

Vanessa: I had to learn this the hard way as a mom. We are never alone and we can't get through it alone. Interdependence is so critical when we're facing mental health struggles. In fact, it's truly healing to turn your rage into power through self care therapy and finding strength in community. In episode 14 with comedian Alice Chan of mom com NYC. We talk about how we both experienced postpartum depression and turn that pain into purpose.

A lot of my journey as a mom was like unlearning this belief that I had that.

Oh, like moms have to be sacrificing all the time and you know, moms can't be selfish and God forbid I'm that mom that needs to get a massage or he needs to work out or any of that. And then just kind of realizing that, taking those breaks for myself actually helps everyone. It's better if I'm not to lose it on my kids.

Like now if my husband's home, I just leave. I'm like, I'm going for a walk. And then I'm back in like 10 minutes and I'm like a whole new mom. So, and then my kids literally say like my older daughter, she was. New mommy's here. Like, yes, she is. She's all shiny in there now . I

PPD looks very different for everyone.

Alyce: People don't talk about it enough. I wouldn't that help our partners too, because the partners are in. Dark space and mothers are feeling this way and they're not talking to their partners and partners.

Aren't understanding it's not always a, some woman like crying in the corner of the shower. PPD. Everything resentment rage. And there are moments of joy.

Vanessa: Depression implies that you're always feeling that way. And there are many moments of joy. I had a billion pictures of my kid and we had so many happy moments together. Always a hundred percent of the time you're depressed or a hundred percent of the time. You're happy. I think every mom, they go through a huge transformation and lack of sleep.

All the hormonal changes that will do a number on anybody that would help us as a community of mothers to understand it. Doesn't all look the same.

And I feel like the pandemic really just exposed and flung that door wide open. I see how, you know, women were taking on the lion's share of housework.

And even during a pandemic, even if both partners were working, when we're in, re-skill taking on more of the caretaking, but something that I really related to in your comedy was this like sense of rage and injustice.

That moms and women of color in particular we experience. And it feels like you're fighting two glass ceilings, you know, one at home with we're doing the lion's share or the unpaid household work and caretaking, and then also the male dominated comedy world or the corporate world. So there's these two glass ceilings.

And I just really related to that. And I remember there was this video of you, like. Angrily chopping vegetables. And your husband's like, oh, why are you mad? You're like, I'm not mad at, and it's like chopping away. And I'm like, that's. So me, like, I feel like I finally feel seen, like, that's me seven days out of the week, angrily chopping vegetables.

All my kids are. No strawberries. I like grapes, no grapes. I want apples. This is the wrong color bull. And just like, everyone's screaming at me. And I'm like, I just work here at guys. Like I just, I'm just the presidentially, whatever you want, it's coming to you. But I'm like, where can I draw this boundary?

And I just have this theory that Asian women have the most rage ha ha ha.

Because we're accustomed to being like at the bottom of the food chain, whether it's at work or at home and in America. And we've gone through our whole lives, feeling like that. And, you know, even research has shown that Asian women are the least likely racial and ethnic group to enter the C-suite both in Silicon valley and at 14 500 pounds.

This is a huge problem. So it starts, you know, in the home and in our families and in our communities. And it goes all the way up to, you know, corporate America and even in Silicon valley. And yet we're hyper-sexualized and objectified in ways that just make us feel less than I was when I was always like, why are we Asian women so angry?

And I'm like, do you need my speech at guide? Do you need to understand where the rage comes from. And so it's was just like, I was like, that's why I love your comedy. Cause like I saw the rage and I was like, yeah, I feel you girl. Like that's me, like that's me a hundred percent. Like finally someone gets it.

Vanessa: And so at the same time, Traditional Asian culture tells us like, okay, women should not be mad. They should not have rage. They should not ask for help or need help. So there's just this like binary that holds us back from expressing it or getting help for it. So I'm curious, how has injustice or inequity field your comedy and how do your fans respond?

Oh, wow. Well, I know which video you're talking about and it was just a regular Wednesday night of me making spaghetti bolonaise and I remember I was already upset about something that I can't even recall, but I was upset at my husband and I remember actually chopping the onions really mad so that he could hear, and he was upstairs and I'm like, just chopping it away.

Alyce: I was so mad and then I was like, This is a good real, I can make comedy out of this. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this form of comedy when I calm down. But I got to fix the spaghetti right now. So after dinner, I don't even know if I ever approached him to let him know. Why I was mad. That's kinda like why I'm seeing a therapist actually right now, because my communication sucks and yeah, a lot of rage, I have to credit my parents for fueling that in me when I was a kid.

Cause I saw a lot of arguing and fighting and my mom had a lot of resentment and rage, but she would tell us about. Instead of telling my dad about it. So I could feel like how upset and ragey she was and how, why she resented my husband, which is not healthy. You don't cut your kids up, but that wasn't her outlet.

And so I think I was carrying a lot of that generational and articles on my grandma, who was, I felt like she was doing so much for everyone. And she was always the last to eat. She. Buying groceries up to like 84 years old. She was buying groceries. She couldn't even drive a properly anymore. She'll still Brian groceries for all her kids.

She had five kids and she would drive her husband around. You know, and they had marital problems, but she was always happy and laughing, but I saw like I saw how much she gave of herself. I'm like, wow, what a woman. And I think a lot of the rage comes from seeing how my grandma was treated, how she sacrificed so much and she never.

Back anything and how my mom was forced to get married at a young age and how she was treated in her own relationships. And, and then, you know, I always vowed to myself. I'm like, I'm never going to be that way. I'm never going to be quiet and I'm never going like. Let my husband tell me what to do. And if I don't feel like something is right, I'm going to speak up.

I'm still working on that. And, and I'm going to have a healthy marriage. I'm not going to find someone who sees women as objects and as women as their housekeeper and all of the 1950s traditional crap. Getting fed by this by society. I loved how you're ending this with that question. How we turn our rage into power.

I mean, I think we're all taking small steps in doing that. I've turned rage into spaghetti. Bolonaise so that's power too. It's so good. I got to make it for you. One day. I have a.

Vanessa: in all seriousness, that's a perfect transition for lesson number four, which is intergenerational trauma can also facilitate intergenerational healing. And that healing, especially for those of us who are children of immigrants can often start with something as simple as validating and acknowledging that these are tough times or that they were tough times. And the emotions and responses we have good bad ugly are all normal and valid.

In episode six, I talked to Jonathan Tran, fam founder and CEO of reflect a company whose mission is to make mental health more accessible. We talked about his own struggles with anxiety and how finding a therapist inspired him to create reflect.

How have you found yourself navigating hustle culture and the toxic masculinity or that bro culture of Silicon valley?

Jonathan: You know, I'm a gay Asian, Buddhist vegetarian I'm from Texas.

I am not the typical Silicon valley startup founder, by any means.

the data actually shows that immigrants and refugees and other folks are incredibly successful. I have a lot of hustle. And so I even think the idea of this hustle culture is really, really difficult for, for your own mental health. And so I think I'm still navigating it. I think. VCs and founders and other folks that I talked to, I think this is evolving and the culture of Silicon valley is evolving because of what we're seeing around unintended consequences.

And now there's so many statistics around founders being more likely to have anxiety, depression, ADHD, suicidal ideation, addiction. So I think we're, we're all recognizing that, you know, there is a real awareness. Cross venture and startups. And even I think the world and more broadly that we have to rethink how we think about work and how we think about ourselves.

Vanessa: So a common experience of a lot of first-generation Asian-Americans, although not all of us, but one common experiences seems to be about how scarcity it has been to have heard. I love you, or I'm proud of you as children of immigrant parents. How do you think this affects modern day Asian-Americans or yourself in the context of transgenerational trauma?

When it comes to our own personal relationship? Yeah, that's a great question. And it's something I think about a lot. And what I, what really resonated with me is the word scarce, because I think that the Asian American experience is not monolithic, but what I've seen in, and it was true of my own experiences is there's a lot of feeling of scarcity.

And there's a feeling of, there are only so many spots at that school. So many jobs out there are so many X out that you have to really fight for it. And it's definitely starts with, you know, when my family came over from Vietnam, we were refugees and we came, we gave up a very, very nice life in Vietnam with, you know, land and, and help and all these things in America.

And we didn't even know the language and we were on a refugee in a refugee camp in the south Pacific. And to see you lose everything. It definitely can create fear, anxiety, a scarcity mentality that is very, very natural. It would be unnatural to walk in and be like, oh, the world's great. Everything's amazing.

Like there you'd be a sociopath or something, but so, and so it's very natural to feel scarcity, to feel like they're only finite resources like the world could be taken from under you. Like that feeling is natural. I think the challenge with our, my parents' generation and with the generation above us is that no one ever told them that was a really challenging time.

And no one told them that it was difficult in that it's hard and they can feel like it was hard and scary and not know what's going on. And instead they, you know, had to, my parents' generation had to internalize. Those feelings and they never had the toolkit to be able to process those emotions. But I think that has led to the chance generational trauma that we talk about whereby they can express those emotions back to us.

And we don't learn how to express those emotions to ourselves, a child's or process that within ourselves or to other people. And so. I think everyone is doing the best they can. And it breaks my heart. I think about my family's experience coming to America and leaving everything behind and not knowing the language and not even knowing and having any friends and never seeing their best friends.

Again, I could not imagine how scary that experience wasn't and I just wish I could have been there with someone who could have been there to say, this is really scary. And I'm sorry, this is so scary, but we are here for you and it's okay to feel scared and we will give you resources to succeed and we will help you and support you.

And, you know, we want you here. And things are going to be okay. And if they're not okay, that's okay too. And here's how we can talk through those feelings, because I think that that lack of toolkit and the lack of understanding of even how to process those emotions, I think has a really damaging effect on their own loneliness and feelings of abandonment and trauma.

And I think, you know, the power of therapy and why I believe so much in therapy is because. You know, these, these feelings and these tools have to be learned and solve itself. And if I don't learn them, then I'm going to pass it on to my children. Everyone is doing the best that they can, but we need to give people more resources and more tools to be able to process their emotions and to be able to break those patterns because, you know, We all grow up with so much, so many issues and then the transactional or generational trauma, it only can stop when we, when we seek help.

And when we get those resources and for me, it's, it's an unwilling burden to expect the individual to just quote unquote, get better or feel better on their own. ,

you know, I was like, literally, almost tearing up when you were telling me this story, because. First of all, I love that you're you have this mission of normalizing therapy because I myself have been in therapy for various purposes over the last few years.

And one thing in my own personal journey I'm realizing is that there is yes, there's transgenerational trauma, but there's also this concept of transgenerational healing. And as you know, a daughter of immigrants as a mother of mixed race children, I have found it. Imperative than ever to go to therapy and do some healing, not just for myself, but also to heal and forgive and come to terms with my own parents' experience as immigrants.

They also, you know, had a really difficult time when they were first here in America. And when I was born, they were both in school. In college and they were on food stamps and they didn't have money for a crib. So I slept in a drawer that they pulled out of a dresser and they just survived on the generosity and kindness of other international students there.

 And I myself, wish I could have gone back and told them that, you know, thank you. First of all. And. I'm sorry, this is so hard. Like, it shouldn't be this way, but you're doing the best you can and your bravery and your stamina are not unrecognized. And even though we all make mistakes as parents, as individuals, like I think the power of compassion and forgiveness is so strong.

And I love that you mentioned that because that is part of therapies, just helping. Recognize that that is a tool of power, actually, not just for ourselves, but for our ancestors and previous generations, but, and also for future generations, like our children. So thank you for, for sharing that with us today.

Jonathan: Wow. Vanessa, you know, hearing your stories of your parents, like, I feel it as well in my heart and I have a lot of empathy for them because that does sound like an amazingly difficult. Journey. And I think, you know, as humans, that's all we want is we want someone. To see us. And you know, when we're in a hole and we're in a challenging time, we don't necessarily want someone to fix our problems.

We want someone just to say, I see you and I'll crawl in the hole with you and I'll give you a hug.

Vanessa: Lesson number five is about making peace with ourselves and our bodies.

It's about learning to be kind to yourself with radical self-acceptance and body neutrality. This is especially true when it comes to body image. Data shows that Asian-Americans are the least satisfied with their physical appearance out of any ethnicity, and suffer from some of the lowest body image rates out of any group. So in episode nine, Mayuko Okai, registered dietitian, yoga teacher, and founder of food liberation talks about intuitive eating and shares her own journey of self discovery after uprooting her life in Los Angeles and moving to Japan.

There's so many categories of food that are bad or we're supposed to avoid and all of that.

And it really creates a lot of stress and creates a lot of negative emotions around choice of food. And in that similar vein, I'm curious, how do you approach it with clients who are struggling with their body image? What kinds of messages can we say to ourselves about our body? Whether it's transforming.

Some of the negative self-talk that we have, or the body dysmorphia that we have. How can we transform that and create healthier habits and how we talk to ourselves?

Mayuko: Yeah. And this says, this is a tricky one. So it's really about unblocking and unlearning what we've picked up along the way since childhood.

So when I work with my clients, we assess their relationship with food and we go back into childhood. How did your parents eat? How did your parents talk about their weight? Right. How did your parents tell you to eat? Did you have rules? Did. They let you eat certain foods. And if you have certain patternings, then where did that come from?

And does that serve you? Is that true? And so I think it's really important that we're questioning our beliefs, right? And so first it's that acknowledgement. And then we have to accept also our bodies, our body image. Maybe we are that's in this body and it's not something we can really change, at least not in the expense of losing our mental health over.

Right. So if we want to be, have peace with our bodies, we also have to accept this body that does so much for us. Our body is not for show. It's not for acceptance, right? It's this body that carries our soul and we want it's so important to keep it healthy. To nourish jet. It's something that we're born with and we are in this body until the day we die.

Hi, how can we be hating it? How can we hurt it? Right. It's what allows us to walk, to go to the places and do all the things that we love. And if we are criticizing and constantly judging every, you know, battle scar, whether it's coming from having a baby or it's just your natural growth, whatever you went through, or even if you didn't go through, which is just your body and why be so critical about something that houses you, this is the one thing that you have right in your life and high.

So it is tricky to let go of how we want to look and to achieve. But it's just being compassionate, right? For yourself, taking care of yourself, as you would take care of your friends and family. Think about the language that you use for your body. Would you say those things to your friends? Right? If we're saying, oh, I'm so fat or I need to lose weight or my stomach is too big.

Would you say those things to someone else? Definitely not. Right. Why would you, why is it okay that you were saying those things to yourself, so actively changing the language and rewiring your brains is so important. It takes time, but it's possible to unlearn and to be able to accept yourself, you don't have to completely love your body, right?

It's okay. I think very few people actually love their body, but it's really about being neutral about your body. Your body is just your body, right? It's not necessarily being body positive. The goal I think is to be neutral, right? I think being positive means, oh, this is, I am, I'm happy with my body because I'm this way.

I love my body because of this. Well now what if we can neutralize it so that there's, it doesn't really matter, right? What, there you are at your ideal weight or our ideal size or not.

Vanessa: Wow. I think that's so revolutionary particularly here in the U S where there is this huge push for body positivity. And I think there's a lot of great conversations happening around that, but I think, and I do think this is also culturally specific to Asian Americans, is that even just working towards a position of neutrality, Seems far more within reach.

And perhaps as you mentioned more healthy for our own mental wellbeing, because we're not assigning a value to it. It's merely the carrier and not just merely, but it's, it's doing a lot for us, but it is simply a physical manifestation of our souls and our brains and our minds and it's almost like you've created this Trinity of neutrality around emotions, food, and the body.

And. Maybe that neutrality is that mindfulness as well. But I think that is such a revolutionary concept, particularly for us women who want to embrace about body positive movement, but also wonder how to do so realistically, within our own minds, when we might not be used to looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying like, wow, you look amazing.

And you know, giving ourselves affirmations. And I think if you are able to do that, that's wonderful. But for some of us that might be harder than for others. So I think that's a great point in terms of maintaining that neutrality.

Lesson number six is about managing social media. When it comes to our mental health. Taking breaks and filling that time with something else and setting boundaries around how we use and consume social media is really beneficial for our mental health, whether it's immersion in nature or taking up a different hobby. It can truly help provide perspective relief from doom, scrolling and gratitude. So the episode that comes to mind here is with Holly Raña Lim, who is the guest on episode four, the podcast.

Social media has now even become more so of like our solitary source of interaction or news in this world due to the pandemic. Recently, Netflix came out with a documentary called the social dilemma that reveal some of the ways that social media is negatively impacting our mental health and wellbeing.

How has social media and pandemic impacted your own mental health?

Holly Lim: I've been taking maybe like a few weeks off of Instagram the last few weeks, and I think that's definitely been helpful. I think part of why I did that was in particular to the anti Asian hate and violence. It was really hard for me to see it on TV and then use constantly. And it was really hard for me.

I know people had good intentions behind it, but it was also a little bit triggering to like be on social media and you're scrolling and it's like almost every other thing is about it. And for me, when I go on social media, it kind of feels like a break, like, oh, I need to take a break. I'm just going to like, take a look at what's on my feed, that then it doesn't become a rake when there's content that's triggering.

And I think on top of that to things like the Brianna Taylor, the verdict, or for the person that was responsible or the George. Incident, like there was just so much racial violence happening in the real world. And I think there's so much, really great, like social media activism and digital organizing.

And there was also kind of a lot of content there that also felt triggering for me that it was important to take breaks. That's so that's kind of how it's impacted my mental health is that like sometimes the content can be triggering and I also know it's my choice that I can have the choice to get off of it.

So what I do is I actually take the app off my phone and I set timers, make sure that I stay within that timeframe. And just encourage people to kind of see what works for them. Explore, because what might work for me might not work for everyone. I know someone out there is probably like what she gave up Instagram for the whole 2019.

So that worked for me. But for other folks, it might be like one day might be enough or a weekend or what have you. So I think it's important to take breaks. And I think that's helpful too, is to replace that time. So it's like, okay, I'm not going to be on social media. And what's helpful is if you have a plan in place.

So I like to do kind of crafty things, sometimes I'm into making earrings, so cool.

Vanessa: Are those the ones you're wearing right

New Speaker: now? Yeah,

Vanessa: so cool. I love it. They're kind of like abstract. Like we're going to have to post a screenshot to put some love on your earrings because those are so cool. I love it. What do

Holly Lim: they mean?

There are polymer clay earrings. So there, yeah, I think what I like about it is it kind of feels like, like Play-Doh almost, and so you're just like kind of molding and conditioning them and using what are they called cutouts, like these patterns to cut them out and you have to bake them so that they become solid.

You gotta stay. There's like a process to it kind of meditative. There's like different steps. So I'll say I won't be on social media at this weekend, but instead of doing that, I'm going to. Take some time to make earrings and then kind of have something to look forward to, especially if it's something that you like doing, as opposed to the taking away of something that I sometimes think I'm addicted to.

So I think it helps to replace the social media with something that you like doing in real life.

Vanessa: I think that's so cool. I mean, just to be able to show people that, Hey, yeah, I, I, I wasn't on Instagram for the last two days and guess what I made instead, like that is so

New Speaker: cool.

Vanessa: The next lesson number seven is movement is medicine. Rest is resistance. Our mental wellness is linked to our physical movement, as well as our ability to participate in intentional rest for our own longevity and health. But also so we can create stronger, more sustainable communities. Long-term. In episode 11, I talked to Gregory Allan Datu Cendana president and co-founder of can't stop. Won't stop consulting and author of be the boss now. And chief creative officer of greg dances.

Greg: Being a dancer actually helps me communicate different ways about. Issues that I care about the injustices of the world. And so I've been actually doing a lot more videos around, me dancing, actually sharing some of like my political analysis or sharing thoughts on different issues that I care about, and that impact me and my people.

 I find personally find joy in. There's something about the embodiment of movement that grounds me. It's probably the one thing that can completely get me to kind of think to focus on my movement and on the music versus anything else.

 One thing that I actually realized during the pandemic was that through a big portion of my professional career, actually, That was actually a part of my identity that I like shied away from.

It was, you know, if I'm a dancer, it's not professional enough. If I'm a dancer, people will be like, well, how can you be a dancer, but also an organizer and a facilitator. And what I found out was it was actually one of my powers. I love that. And people actually appreciated me bringing dance because people didn't really move their bodies.

And especially as someone who is mindful of like our holistic care and wellbeing and health, it actually pushed people and a lot of people to, to feel a different energy than they were normally used to. And so I was like, wow. It's important to not only own this, but to actually actively and proactively use this super power to engage and to nurture folks.

Vanessa: I really believe particularly in the line of work that we do that rest is resistance and we want to avoid burnout because we want to be here longer and we want, and we're doing very important work. That's going to sustain a community. So I also think that it is so important to be mindful of like, oh, I need to rest.

And I often find myself at those points throughout the week where I'm like, oh, it's three o'clock. I am crashing. And I've had admittedly, it's been hard to give myself permission to rest at that point. So I've had to work on that, but. A good reminder is if I look at my toddlers, because if they are tired, they are crashing.

They are not asking me for permission. They are just going to fall asleep and they are not going to feel bad about it. And I feel like a lot of adulthood is just kind of unlearning all of these things. We were socialized with those kids. It's like, no, you have to do it this way. You have to be this way and act this way and do things the way everyone else does them.

And then as an adult, we're like, Well, wait a minute. Where did I learn this from? Why is it making me so unhappy? So I think that I love that mindful approach to just listening to your body when it's telling you I need to rest, or it's saying, Hey, I like doing this, let's do this again. You know, if it's dance or anything, right.

Finally the last lesson, number eight is on choosing radical joy and rest as a super power and antidote to hate. And I'm going to tell you. Today about something I've never opened up. On the podcast before, and that's actually my personal experience of being a survivor of a hate crime. Um, It happened a few months ago, but it's taken me a while to process. And that space has given me time to reflect on it.

While I was on the way to pick up my daughter from daycare, a pickup truck cut me off and they did this illegal U-turn. And I almost got hit by their car. So I honked and I was very alarmed and I stopped. Uh, the man in the truck then stopped stared me down and purposely boxed me. And in traffics that I could not actually move.

He had this disgusted look on his face and he was staring at me and he then spat at me through his window.

And for the longest two minutes of my life, he was staring me down. He started yelling at me. I was terrified that he might pull a gun or something. I was very scared because, you know, I was on my way to pick up my daughter. I could have had my kids in my car. And so I just kind of smiled at him and let him.

You know, gestured for him to go his way. And he then pulled his eyes up at me in a racial slur that many of us are familiar with, um, who are Asian and he spun off and. The first thought I had, um, as I was really shaking was. Oh, no, I shouldn't have worn my hair pulled back in a bun like this. It makes me look too Asian. And then I was immediately horrified at that inner voice of internalized racism. Of fear of being killed and attacked because of what I looked like. I reported the incident to the police, but street cameras were not able to capture the attackers license plate. I was very shaken up and scared, but I found healing in therapy and confiding in close friends and family about what had happened.

And one of my friends, coincidentally, we had planned to go see this play by Kristina Wong called Sweatshop Overlord, which was amazing, just a fantastic performance. And I went with my friend, Melisa. And she was kind enough to drive me into the city, so I wouldn't have to be traveling alone.

And I share this with you to just normalize that, first of all, this does happen. Um, and it's not okay. And it definitely stirs up a lot of difficult emotions and pain. Um, but. I think that the best way for me to. Reclaim my power was to reclaim our culture, our heritage, our pride, by going to see a play that was created by an Asian woman and just choosing radical joy and celebration as an act of defiance. So the other point that I want to make is that I did end up forgiving my attacker. And I want to clarify what that means. It is not saying that what that person did was not horribly wrong and cruel. Forgiveness is not weakness. Forgiveness is freedom. It's freeing ourselves from that burden of hatred and resentment and rage.

So many of us are holding on to hate and anger because of the horrible events happening around the world. These feelings are valid. They are absolutely understandable. Uh, but they are not sustainable. Nor do they free you from the burden of emotional trauma. So in choosing to plan that birthday party go out for Korean barbecue with friends, dance in your living room like no one's watching or record it and post it on TikTok or Instagram, like everyone's watching...

Whatever gives you joy, lean into it because our survival depends on it.

So to recap for everyone, the top eight mental health lessons I've learned over the past year from these incredible AAPI leaders are the first is boundaries are a form of self-care. Number two is imposter syndrome and negative self-talk are intertwined.

Number three is asking for help does not make you weak or selfish. And self care is not self-indulgent or selfish. Rather it helps you turn your rage and grief into power rather than leave you feeling powerless.

Number four is intergenerational trauma can also facilitate intergenerational healing. Number five is be kind to yourself and your body. If body positivity feels out of reach strive for body neutrality. Number six is if you're going to take a break from social media, find something else to fill that time. That gives you joy.

Number seven is movement is medicine. Rest is resistance. Number eight is radical joy, freedom, and rest are a superpower and antidote to hate. Thank you so much for joining me here today. If you felt seen or heard or something resonated with you here. Please take the time to leave us a five-star review on apple podcasts. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook @thrivespice and feel free to slide into our DMs and tell us what you thought of or felt from the episode.

Vanessa: Hey everyone. It's Vanessa. So I'm very excited to share with you an announcement. As many of you know, I'm the podcast host and producer of Thrive Spice. But for the past five months, I've also been working on a very exciting project as the executive producer of a new podcast and video podcasts coming out in late June called Be the Boss Now featuring one of my previous podcast, guests Gregory Allan Datu Cendana. It's a podcast about redefining entrepreneurship and collective power, and centers women, BIPOC and queer folks, disabled people and people of different religions. It's also one of the first accessible podcasts to feature American Sign Language interpreters for every single episode for the deaf and hard of hearing. So please stay tuned and be sure to follow me @thrivespice As we announced the launch of Be the Boss Now Podcast in upcoming weeks. We're really excited to share that with you. Thank you again.